Insane home Water/meth injection...

[Heath_h49008]

I have friends who own bars. I'm betting the deposit on one of the used 10gal is about $15-$20.

I'll start compiling the part numbers and links to edit the first post.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Sorry, late reader to the thread. Have you looked at agriculture pumps? Often, they are in 24v, made to pump nasty chemicals (methanol being an unexpectedly corrosive liquid), and aren't that expensive. I would consider at least trying an ag pump before needing to construct a custom, 125psi pressure vessel for your sprayer system, especially with the volumes you're taking here.

Wow... I totally missed this post. I'm sorry sir, I was not ignoring your point.

We are designing this around common (and cheap) Cornelius Kegs used for soda and home brewers. They are designed to hold pretty corrosive drinks, rated for 130psi, and refillable with common parts.

Methanol is actually very rough on the multifuel engines, and we will use the bare minimum if any at all. After figuring out why jwaller's truck almost came apart, I won't run ANY meth, under any conditions.

The agpump would be another way to go, but more costly and requiring power/wiring. But if you have one laying around, our pressure numbers and injector sizes could be adapted easily.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

I have friends who own bars. I'm betting the deposit on one of the used 10gal is about $15-$20.

I'll start compiling the part numbers and links to edit the first post.

When I am ready to start doing this, I will be in touch to get my hands on one of those 10 gallons.

So how are you thinking of mounting these? I have never seen one in person, so I will need some input.

 

[Heath_h49008]

When I am ready to start doing this, I will be in touch to get my hands on one of those 10 gallons.

So how are you thinking of mounting these? I have never seen one in person, so I will need some input.

That's a good question... we can daisy chain a few together pretty easily if you want a "Land Camel" water supply ton equal your fuel range. It is potable water that has other uses, after all.

My ideas for locations are front corners of the bed, the drivers fender area, under the bed on the inside of the frame with a bed hatch of some kind to fill it, or.... ? They MUST be mounted vertical... that's the hitch. The 5 gal kegs are 26" x 8.5"dia, so they aren't that tall. If you stuck it in the open, they can be polished, if you stick it underneath, it might stay colder if you get thirsty. Honestly, you could mount it in the fender on the drivers side painted green and only another MV guy will ask what it is.

For reference, a jerry can is 18"-18.5" tall x 6.5"-7" thick.

As for the mounting... some strap style steel bands and a bracket on the bottom should keep them from going anywhere.

What do you think?

 

[Loco_Hosa]

That's a good question... we can daisy chain a few together pretty easily if you want a "Land Camel" water supply ton equal your fuel range. It is potable water that has other uses, after all.

My ideas for locations are front corners of the bed, the drivers fender area, under the bed on the inside of the frame with a bed hatch of some kind to fill it, or.... ? They MUST be mounted vertical... that's the hitch. The 5 gal kegs are 26" x 8.5"dia, so they aren't that tall. If you stuck it in the open, they can be polished, if you stick it underneath, it might stay colder if you get thirsty. Honestly, you could mount it in the fender on the drivers side painted green and only another MV guy will ask what it is.

For reference, a jerry can is 18"-18.5" tall x 6.5"-7" thick.

As for the mounting... some strap style steel bands and a bracket on the bottom should keep them from going anywhere.

What do you think?

In both our cases we are going to be using 395s, which do NOT fit on the spare tire carrier. This in mind, that could be a good place to store them. I would spray 383 CARC or some BEHR on them myself, instead of polishing.

If you plan on being able to remove them for filling, I am almost thinking a large fire extinguisher bracket could work.... but I would have to do some searching.

Daisy chaining is a thought.

If you were to run out of water, the system would then be trying to empty the trucks air tanks into the intake while under heavy throttle, which leads to lack of braking power. (or am I mistaken...?) That in mind, I would say its important to have an accessible switch to turn off the water injection.

How are they secured at an establishment? Do they have handles on the top? I could weld together a box for it easy enough I suppose.

My previous question about injectors was left un-answered, how difficult would it be to swap between different size injectors? If I ordered three of them, would it be efficient to change them out in the driveway to tune my setup to my own liking? They appeared to be very inexpensive.

 

[Heath_h49008]

If I'm right about the numbers, the one size is all you would need up to 300hp give or take. The heads, turbo, etc can handle 180hp worth of fuel all day long in LDS tune/pump configuration. So, if you think of that as the baseline, and this as being able to compensate for roughly 150HP worth of fuel heat, that would mean the engine wouldn't become thermally taxed until you surpassed the 320hp range. As curious as I am what that would be like, I don't think we are going to get it from a couple turns on a smoke screw. *BOOM* comes to mind... Holes in the block cool WAAAYYY better than water.

Also, there is no downside to running more water than needed, so for nearly stock engines that may only kick the water in once in a while, being a bit "wet" doesn't hurt.

But, if you want, you just unscrew the nozzle and screw another one in. You will need to drill and tap a hole the correct size in the elbow between the turbo and the intake. It's just a sized orifice drilled into a threaded chunk of brass. You can put the solenoid anywhere and just run the line to it.

As for running out of water.. yep, you would then be injecting/losing air. But as long as you remember to check it every 3 gallons/hr, you should be fine. I suppose you could rig a water level sending unit into the keg of some sort, but checking it seems easier. Oh yeah... why bother with a daisy chained keg? Just stick a tank of any shape anywhere you want and refill the keg from that. No fuss, no muss. Hmmm... potable water. It's like beer in a primitive form...

I seriously doubt we will go through 5gal as fast as you think you will. Even with an EGT system... it's going to trigger on hills and acceleration, and kick off once it cools or you slow down/go back downhill etc.. I would not be surprised if we have it engaged less than 50% of the time in normal driving. I'll surf the other diesel boards and find out how much stuff they go through on average and see if I can model our data to something similar.

 

[outcast]

Could you rig up a float switch, something like a float in a carb bowl, to the air inlet? That way when your out of water the switch cuts air.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Hmm... It would make sense there would be a flow based switch already made for something... factories don't like machines running "Dry."

Ideas?

I don't like the $133 price on these... Liquid Flow Switch, Piston, SPST, 20VA - Flow Switches - Pump Controls - 1ALV9 : Grainger Industrial Supply

 

[bigugh20]

As far as location and the need to keep it from freezing you could place the keg in the cab. Esp. if you were running 2 springer seat bases, between the seats next to the back of the cab would be out of the way and keep it from freezing. Just a thought.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Well, I figured by using a smaller injector than you have chosen, I could reduce the amount the water used if necessary.

I know that I am the exception, most people cant sit behind the wheel at speed for 5 plus hours at a time without pulling over, but I do. I have done about 800 miles in one day in a stock Deuce.

I cant imagine that you could run out of water without noticing, I would think there would a change in sound, or your low air buzzer would come on. The good news being that your likely not using the water injection at the same moment as you need max brakes. Im thinking more of a simple switch between the Hobbs switch and solenoid, so if you know your out of water but dont feel like stopping, you shut off the system. Depending on how far your fuel is turned up, this may or may not be a doable course of action.

If I was going far, I would certainly keep a water jug with me. Very useful for many things. (Stranger is overheating, you can help him get it home, ect)

I dont think our water consumption rates are comparable with the big cummins guys, simply because of our trucks running at such high RPM on the freeway.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Good point.

But, our engines are designed to cruise at 1900-2300 indefinitely... or at least seem happy to do so. I'm not certain what I can do to model the EGT at that "theoretical" load.


Hmmm... I ripped this off of snow performance's FAQ

11. How much range will a tank of Water/Methanol provide?

Diesels use more fluid than a gasoline application, and are in heavier load states more often.
• On a Stage 1 or 2 system, the factory washer fluid tank on a pickup truck (usually 1-1.5 gallons) will last a tank of fuel. This is for normal mixed driving with no towing and some aggressive acceleration.
• On a Stage 3 MPG MAX™ used for towing, the 7 gallon reservoir (included with the MPG MAX™) usually lasts 1-2 tanks of diesel fuel. In an un-loaded state, the 7 gallon reservoir will provide about 1000 miles of range. When towing, the 7 gallon usually lasts about 500 miles.
• A standard Stage 3 system will use about 1 gallon of liquid for every 75 miles of towing. Many Stage 3 users take advantage of their stock washer tank or the special universal fitting included in Stage 3 Snow Performance diesel kits with a custom large capacity tank. Be sure to use a solenoid upgrade for any reservoir mounted in the rear of the vehicle.

My logic so far is this...
1. We don't spin past 2500rpm without venting the block sooner or later.
2. The extra fuel will only be required for acceleration TO that rpm level.
3. Once we get there, we will be backed out of the pedal as much as we have cranked it up unless the load on the driveline is increased fairly dramatically. Hills, passing (don't laugh, we might be able to do it with big tires, overdrive, and the screw turned)... and on-ramps are not constant duty.
4. If you are thinking of flat land towing of a major load... well. I don't know. How much water will we need to cool an unknown additional quantity of fuel for an unknown given load? How many horse will we require in a steady state, under those conditions?

The better method at that point may be to reduce the tank pressure, and in so doing reduce the water flow rate. No screwing with swapping nozzles, just drop the airflow to the keg. If it gets hot, crank it back up. We could also do this with a liquid flow valve after the keg that would allow for adjustability of rate, and the option to cut flow completely if the water ran out. That might be easier than trying to vary the pressure side. (Although it really would be "6 one, half-dozen the other")

What do you think?

EDIT: WARNING!!! If you reduce the flow too much for the nozzle, you will lose the "mist" and risk not getting even flow to all cylinders... I'm not really worried about it because if it's down that far you either don't need the water or it won't be doing anything at such low rate. But I just wanted to remind you the functional base flow is higher than zero. We would just have to yank it and see when that point was reached . Easy enough.

 

[outcast]

It would be nice to be able to cut air to the tank (keg) when you fill it. Or at least be able to safely bleed of air. Then agin you could just bleed down the trucks air tanks. Just be nice to be able to top off water with out shutting down sometimes.

 

[Heath_h49008]

It would be nice to be able to cut air to the tank (keg) when you fill it. Or at least be able to safely bleed of air. Then agin you could just bleed down the trucks air tanks. Just be nice to be able to top off water with out shutting down sometimes.

Putting a valve before the tank or a quick disconnect and airhose would be simple, and probably the best way to connect it anyway. Then you would just vent the air when you popped the line.

You can't open a Corny keg under pressure. So a quick disconnect, to nipple, to checkvalve, to keg... or checkvalve, to QD, to nipple series on the air-in line would be all that was required.

I really like the idea of a restricting/shut off valve on the liquid line better than trying to regulate air pressure in the keg without venting the brakes as well.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Not one to necro-post often, but did you get your truck yet? Has anyone tried this?

This is just one of my favorite custom ideas.

 

[mobileauto2000]

Not one to necro-post often, but did you get your truck yet? Has anyone tried this?

This is just one of my favorite custom ideas.

Ya what he said.

I forgot all about this post.
I subscribe so I would get all the awesome updates and then nothin'.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Im still planning to build it, I just have a few things to do first.

I was surprised when I come back after like, 3 months, and no one had done this yet!

 

[Heath_h49008]

I'm still waiting on my truck... I was supposed to be picking it up Saturday.

I might be delayed a month. It's going to depend on my work schedule...

Do you have the Keg? Also, how are your brakes?

 

[Loco_Hosa]

I'm still waiting on my truck... I was supposed to be picking it up Saturday.

I might be delayed a month. It's going to depend on my work schedule...

Do you have the Keg? Also, how are your brakes?

My brakes are.... Disassembled finally

Its amazing how difficult jobs like that are when you have a bad back and lack an engine hoist. (I need to invest in one of them)

I have some work to do on the engine before I squirt water in. To do that I have to get the 40 gallons of WMO out of the fuel tank that it had when it broke down.

I figure that to diagnose a hard start and poor idle condition in winter time I better at least have clean diesel and clean filters to start with.

Once that is addressed, I can move on to a water injection system. I am still really excited to do this. The only question remaining is where to mount the d@mn thing and with what type of strap.

EDIT: I have not purchased the keg or any other parts for this project yet. Soon.

 

[Heath_h49008]

My purchase date was predicated upon work waiting on the truck that I could use to pay my bills. I turned down jobs because as soon as I picked up the truck, I (supposedly) had a guaranteed pile of work that would more than cover the truck, and a tidy profit.

I now just need to go back to the places I turned down and get some steady income locked in so I can feel safe spending my savings on the truck. Should be about a month to stabilize in whichever job to where I feel safe spending my safety net, and repaying any cash from the truck fund I use to cover expenses.


We have that parts list in here.... I need to clean up the thread and edit all of the hard data into the first post for convenience. I started doing it a couple months ago, and lost an hour of editing/copying/etc in one shot.

I suppose I should put the build pics in here when I start mine, or you start yours. We can cut them into the first post as well.

 

[rronning84]

I am hooked. I love the idea and have been wanting to do a system. The idea of using air is very appealing to me and I will be starting the process of acquiring parts as soon as I get home to the states. I just plumbed two additional 5 gal air tanks in to my system before I left so I am familiar with tapping in to the air system. This should be good fun.