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Leaking Wheels with CTIS

tokarev

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Didn't know where to ask this question but here goes - Have (2) 395/85-20 Goodyear tires mounted on CTIS wheels - Both leak at the point where the air line passes through the split rim. Another member here suggested splitting the rim cleaning and lubing the o-ring with silicone lub and reassembling. The question is can these type leaks be fixed with a liquid sealer?
 

ChesterCounty

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Most likely as the other member suggested an o-ring issue. Either needs to be replaced or serviced as mentioned.

If by liquid sealer your talking like a can of Slime then the answer is no. Those types of products are never recommended for a CTIS based system as it will create issue with the air system. Now in the event you are disconnecting the CTIS and running the tires as is I suppose the liquid sealers might work I just can't imagine the number of cans you would need to address it in those tires :)

Best bet, service the tire and replace the o-ring
 

ChesterCounty

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I have personally had luck finding them on ebay. In fact there is a listing now for them. Not sure if we are allowed to post auction links so I won't. Just try m923 o-ring
 

patracy

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Replace the o-ring after breaking it down and cleaning the surfaces. Sealer will NEVER work on the rim due to centrifugal force.
 

M35A2-AZ

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You will need to take the wheel apart and clean it up (painting will be needed) and replace the o-ring.
When you take one of these wheels apart they are always rusty. Also always replace the o-ring when you take the wheel apart.
 

ClarkeF

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Just did one of the two wheels I have off my M923A2 that is leaking in the exact same way yesterday. As others have said - you need to break the wheel down, separate the halves and replace the o-ring that seals the two halves up.

It's a two-man job and about two or three hours - at least for my first time. I think we could do this again in much less time now that we have done one. I bought the o-ring's from Erik's Surplus and he shipped fast.

Basic steps (front tire):

Order parts.
Ensure you have tools/sockets that fit the wheel lug nuts and wheel half nuts. You will need a schraeder valve tool in order to remove/install valve stems. Order any missing tools like a really big torque wrench that goes to at least 425 lb-ft. :)
Chock truck wheels.
Jack up the wheel to be serviced. Place jack stand on firm surface and support axle. If need be, put block under jack - especially if working on soft surfaces. You may need to loosen the budd nuts first - before jacking if you don't have a big a** impact gun or Robotool that can do the job without using the weight of the truck against the ground to keep the wheel from moving.
Remove CTIS shield - four nuts - two large (1-1/8"?) doubled nuts and washers, two hub bolts and washers.
Watch out for the shield spacer behind the shield - note that one spacer is shorter than the other to account for the CTIS manifold fitting.

Take a picture with the cover off for reference of CTIS hoses, manifold, turret valve stem, and so on for later reference.

Remove valve cap and schraeder valve stem from CTIS manifold to deflate tire.
Use 9/16" wrench to remove fitting from CTIS tank valve hose that feeds the tire turret valve stem.
Remove hub bolt holding CTIS manifold assembly - wiggle it off as there is an o-ring underneath that covers the manifold tube that provides air through the hub.
Check o-ring for cracks/wear or deformation. Replace if needed.

At this point you should have a basic wheel (deflated when the manifold valve stem hose was removed on the hub.

DO NOT work on a two-piece wheel that retains any air pressure. The valve stem (if you don't have CTIS) should be removed to ensure no residual pressure remains. Disassembly of a two-piece wheel with internal pressure can result in BAD THINGS (tm) happening to people and objects nearby.

Checking for LH threads (left side) or RH threads (right side) and using air impact or BFW remove the budd nuts from the hub - have Soldier 2 stabilize wheel when the last nut comes off.
I used a cargo dolly to get under the tire and lift tire/wheel off hub. Move to an area with room to work and swing a really big wrench - if wheel starts to fall over - stabilize it quick or get out of the way!

Draw a arrow pointing at the turret valve stem / centering hole through the two wheel halves on the tire.
Remove the nut holding the counter-weight and the weight from the wheel - note the orientation to the 5:30 position relative to the turret valve stem.

I used penetrating oil on all the wheel studs and nut the night before so they weren't taken off dry - if you haven't prelubricated things - do so now.
Using impact tools remove wheel nuts - loosen each nut a little at a time as you go around so as to not distort the outer two-piece wheel half.
Using pry bars, gently pry around the perimeter of the wheel half to lift outer wheel half from tire. Some penetrating oil between the wheel half and the tire into the bead between tire and wheel speeds the process of unsticking the tire bead from the outer wheel half.

When separated, reach down inside remaining wheel half and fish or hook out the o-ring with a probe of some kind. My inner wheel half was a bit grubby/rusty in one location but otherwise looked good! Your options at this point are two-fold: a) continue to disassemble wheel to remove the inner wheel half from the beadlock/tire for further cleaning and painting (if it's nasty/rusty and unlikely to seal well, or b) clean-up what you can of the o-ring seating area with the inner wheel and beadlock still in place, replace the o-ring and try your luck.

My wheel was clean inside except for the one area where it looked like water had pooled and built up crap that caused the rubber to abrade and fail. I chose option b). Some effort with a pick and screwdriver and other little tools to get in their and scrape and clean it out in order to provide a smooth environment for the seal to live. I also checked the outer wheel half and found a couple notches in the seal surface - maybe a dent/edge and some hardened and pooled paint leading to ridges. I cleaned them up with a file and a bit of paint on all bare metal to prevent future rust.

When the surfaces are clean and free of debris and if need be painted, lube the new o-ring liberally with grease and tuck it down into the grove at the bottom of the inner wheel half. I also lightly lubed the bead that would press against it on the outer wheel half. You could try and re-use your old o-ring. Mine was a 2010 rebuild and the o-ring was deformed and squished as compared to new. I wouldn't want to take the chance for a $12 item...

Checking the centering hole orientation, lower the outer wheel half onto the inner wheel studs ensuring valve stem is sticking through the centering hole.
Gently press the outer half down to seat the o-ring evenly.
Put your flanged wheel half nuts on by hand and run them down until just short of contacting the outer wheel half.
Tighten in a criss-cross pattern to seat the outer half - tightening each nut just a little bit at a time - you don't want to bend the wheel or distort the o-ring by tightening one nut too much.
When all the nuts are seated and the wheel halves have drawn together, get your big torque wrench out and in a criss-cross pattern, tighten each wheel half nut to 210-240 lb-ft (TM 9-2320-272-24-1 - page 2-36). When done, go around and check each wheel-half nut for proper torque again.

I installed a schraeder valve in the turret valve stem. Using a clip-on hose, I filled the tire in stages to 70 psi - checking for leaks along the way. Soapy water at the wheel half junction can help locate if you still have a leak. If you do - start over with disassembly after deflating tire. You can check the turret valve for leaks too - that has a gasket or o-ring and can be a source of leaks.

Put the counter weight on in it's proper place (5:30 tot he turret valve stem) and tighten the flanged nut holding it in place.

With Soldier 2, maneuver wheel back into place. Checking wheel orientation against the manifold pipe on the hub using your previous reference picture(s). Maneuver wheel/tire onto hub and while pushing the tire bottom in, hand-thread one budd nut onto a bottom stud. Hand-thread remaining nuts on to start. Run the nuts down to center-up the wheel on the studs.
Remove jack-stand and lower truck until wheel is lightly on the ground.
Tighten budd nuts to spec with your big torque wrench - 400-425 lb-ft (TM9-2320-272-24-1 - Page 2-80).
Lower wheel the rest of the way and remove jack.
Check o-ring on the manifold air line on the hub first for damage, you can lubricate it lightly with silicone grease, install CTIS tank valve assembly and secure with one hub bolt.

Remove the schraeder valve previously installed in the valve stem.


Screw CTIS line adapter down over the turret valve stem. Check for leaks. There are apparently o-rings inside the hose to turret valve stem adapters which may need replacement if damaged.
Install spacer into inside of CTIS shield - ensuring short leg on spacer will sit on the CTIS manifold's valve flange. Put the hub bolts through to hold everything together and install on wheel. Hand thread hub bolts into place - ensuring the two CTIS shield tabs are placed over the two respective wheel half studs. Add washers to the wheel stud, hand thread nuts and tighten all four to 60-100 lb-ft (TM 9-2320-272-24-2 - Page 3-640).

You're done. Enjoy a cold drink of your choice and admire a tire that will not be flat a few hours later. mine is still holding air nicely after two days. I'll be doing a rear tire this weekend.

A safety recommendation - if you had a front tire that had a leak and regularly would be flat I would rotate that tire to one of the rear positions. It's possible the tire may have suffered internal damage from the truck's weight sitting on it. A front tire is NOT the tire you want to blow out when driving the truck - improve your odds and move that tire to a rear location.

Cheers,

Clarke
Editied to add/correct torque specs and improve readability.
 
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tokarev

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Safety Harbor Florida
Clarke
Once the wheel is split using a couple pry bars/lube you removed the wheel from the rim? I didn't think that was possible by hand. We will have to give it a try for sure. Thanks for the detailed info.
Walter
 

ClarkeF

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Hestand, KY
tokarev,

Yup. Admittedly my truck is a 2010 rebuild so it only has 3 or 4 years of being together, but that's what we did. Two prybars and a pickle fork and just went around the outer rim half (the shallow half) and pry, pry, squirt, pry, squirt, pry and after going around twice the outer wheel half separated from the inner allowing me to lift it away and access to the o-ring. I was prepared to get out my engine hoist, straddle the tire with the lower v and pull the wheel half off, but I didn't need to.

If I had to remove the inner half, I would have turned the tire upside-down (studs down) supporting the inner wheel (not the tire) on wood blocks while allowing weight of gravity to pull down on the tire. Sprayed the inner bead betwen wheel and tire with penetrating oil an tried the same thing - pry bars to encourage the rubber/metal separation. I've found standing on the tire, feet on either side and shuffling around the bead of the tire also encourages separation. When I did this with the deuce SS tire/wheel, one worked and the tire/beadlock slide down, the other required the use of the engine hoist to pull the inner wheel half off the beadlock. Your mileage may vary (YMMV).

let me know if it works for you too. I'll be doing a rear this way this weekend. I will report back.

Clarke
Once the wheel is split using a couple pry bars/lube you removed the wheel from the rim? I didn't think that was possible by hand. We will have to give it a try for sure. Thanks for the detailed info.
Walter
 

1 Patriot-of-many

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Thanks PoM, I've edited the article to reflect torque specs from the manual with specific cites from the TM's. The budd nut torque is listed (at least in the first place I found it in the TM's) at 400-425 lb-ft,
Gotta love conflicting TM's....... TM9-2320-272-24-2 Page 18 and 19 of the PDF Wheel and Tire(M939A1/A2) Rotation.... 3. Tighten forty stud nuts (2) 450-500 lb-ft (610-678 N•m) in sequence shown 3. Tighten twenty stud nuts (9) 450-500 lb-ft (610-678 N•m) in sequence shown. Okay guys which is it? -1 or -2 correct? LOL. Hope I didn't overtorque my wrecker lugs that were handtight and not centered.
 
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Nomadic

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Gotta love conflicting TM's....... TM9-2320-272-24-2 Page 18 and 19 of the PDF Wheel and Tire(M939A1/A2) Rotation.... 3. Tighten forty stud nuts (2) 450-500 lb-ft (610-678 N•m) in sequence shown 3. Tighten twenty stud nuts (9) 450-500 lb-ft (610-678 N•m) in sequence shown. Okay guys which is it? -1 or -2 correct? LOL. Hope I didn't overtorque my wrecker lugs that were handtight and not centered.
Torque wrench fanatic here..Just guessing w/out looking at the diagram or context, but after you tighten 40 stud nuts you should go back and verify the nuts shown at illustration 9. This makes sense because you can't cinch the rim down evenly one stud nut at a time and you want the rim held on there perfectly over the entire circumference. Thats why the sequence pattern is critical as is the amount of torque.
 

mdss

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Location
Lynnwood, WA
Just buy a torque multiplier tool from eBay etc to get rims off if you can't get the lugs off, easy easy with that tool. Once you get them off you can again use the torque multiplier to spilt the rims apart. Or in my case buy a 3/4 electric impact gun that plug into the slave receptacle of your truck. It will pull the 2 half rim lugs apart easy.

Once you get lugs off, use 2 regular crow bars and a bead breaker bar and run the bead breaker around the small half of the rim. Then, stick one side if the crowbar in one half and the other crow bar in the other half and the bead breaker to pop it off. Use the crow bars as leverage to lift. Then flip the tire around and use the 90* end of the crow bar on the opposite side of the valve stem on the big part of the rim and use the bead breaker to lift the valve side once you get it high enough use the other crow bar 90 and pry right up. The valve will pop out of the bead and you can lift the big side of rim right out! Do your r/r etc.

On the studs and any contact surface I use a metal wire wheel that attaches to electric drill and run it until everything clean including the oring seat. Paint it up with flat black to protect surface and put it back together. When putting the rims back together it's pretty self explanatory. But, what I do is take a 1/2" electric impact gun and run all the rim half lugs down until tight in criss cross pattern. The gun is about 250-270ftlbs in that area. I usually test air tire before putting it back on truck.

After that I take the same 1/2" electric gun and mount the tire to hub in a criss cross pattern to the max the gun will go about 300ftlbs each. To finish it off I take thick flat black paint to cover the lugs. It does 2 things protects from rust and also serves as an indicator that the lugs are coming lose if they ever do as the paint will break the seal around the lugs seam if it does. All these tools can be found at harbor freight and wal mart that I referred to aside from the 3/4 impact gun is military you can find on eBay etc. I own multiple 5tons I use for my business everyday. Most work we do is rougher than the typical 5ton owner will use their truck for. Never had one problem.


÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷Now, as with anything else do the work at your own risk these tires can kill you. I am telling you what I do out of my own experience, I am not telling you to do it this way. ÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷

I have done all the work one man. I can do a full tire in about an hour including waiting for paint to dry. All these tools will get the job done and in all will cost you about $300 from harbor freight. Don't forget to get an air/hydraulic lift! Makes life easy so you can adjust the height if the truck to easily install tire back on!

By going off the 1/2" [ electric ] impact gun I know for a fact all lugs are at least 250ftlbs consistant even on the hub itself. Going 500ftlbs is overkill and will cause you to have to pull out a torque multiplier to pull them off. I have gotten flats before on freeway and off ( , punctures, ctis not working etc..etc ) and I can tell you doing it this way makes installing a spare take about 5-10min. Doing it the other way will cause you to swear and spit and yell to no end. Anyone who owns these trucks should be checking the rims and tires every single time you are going to take it out anyway. If you don't you are a crazy person... With air it's hit and miss torque wise, electric is the way to go for sure with these tires. I have done over 20 14.00 x20 tires this way on 936a2, 923, 813a1 etc.

All have worked flawlessly since I systemized this process. I do all of them the same so I know they are all the same. It also serves as redundancy for swapping out to other trucks etc.
 
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