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Lockers
- Thread starter cbvet
- Start date
Well, they positively lock both axles in a rear together for maximum traction. When cornering and not under power, the locker will unlock and allow the outer wheel to go faster. If under power while turning, they may not unlock. A simple test for your truck would be to jack up the back axle completely and try to spin a tire. If it spins and the other one goes in the opposite direction, its not a locker. If it spins and clicks or only spins in one direction, its got a detroit in it.
spicergear
New member
Re: RE: Lockers
I certainly hope your source is not our "friend" from the pan-handle-M1075 said:
houdel
Active member
RE: Re: RE: Lockers
From Kenny's comments, it appears that Detroit Lockers are self engage/disengage based on either a torque or slippage difference between the two wheels on the axle. Somewhat similar to the sprage on the front drive. Deuces were sometimes equipped with air lockers (I believe Tom Bauer has a set on his truck) operated with a dash switch like the air shift front axles. The air lockers are manually selected and are either fully free spooling or fully locked in depending on what the driver selects.
Any thoughts as to which performs better, Detroit Lockers or Air Lockers? Are Detroits available for the Deuce (already answered that myself, yes, $569 each from Reider racing)? Or does it boil down to whether you are a control freak or not? If you just absolutely, positively have to manually control everything the truck is doing then you want Air Lockers, otherwise Detroits are fine?
Seems to me the Detroits would be better as they would engage before the driver realized a wheel was slipping and then disengage when the slippage went away, thereby minimizing torque wind up in the drivetrain and maybe prevent premature parts failure.
From Kenny's comments, it appears that Detroit Lockers are self engage/disengage based on either a torque or slippage difference between the two wheels on the axle. Somewhat similar to the sprage on the front drive. Deuces were sometimes equipped with air lockers (I believe Tom Bauer has a set on his truck) operated with a dash switch like the air shift front axles. The air lockers are manually selected and are either fully free spooling or fully locked in depending on what the driver selects.
Any thoughts as to which performs better, Detroit Lockers or Air Lockers? Are Detroits available for the Deuce (already answered that myself, yes, $569 each from Reider racing)? Or does it boil down to whether you are a control freak or not? If you just absolutely, positively have to manually control everything the truck is doing then you want Air Lockers, otherwise Detroits are fine?
Seems to me the Detroits would be better as they would engage before the driver realized a wheel was slipping and then disengage when the slippage went away, thereby minimizing torque wind up in the drivetrain and maybe prevent premature parts failure.
M1075
Active member
Re: RE: Lockers
No, definitely not. I did get a deuce locker there once, but I don't think he handles the 5 tons. Reider Racing is where I bought my 5 ton lockers. http://reiderracing.com/spicergear said:I certainly hope your source is not our "friend" from the pan-handle-M1075 said:
Jake0147
Member
Re: RE: Re: RE: Lockers
Yeah, lots of thoughts. Here's the basic's however.
Starting with a conventional differential, which is open, and requires both wheels to have traction. It sends rotation (not power) to each wheel. If one wheel wishes to move slower, it will send the extra rotation to the other wheel. Great on road, not so great off road. (Actually, just fine off road too, until you find a situation where one wheel on any axle looses a signifigant amount of tracton.
A locked differential would be just that, locked. No differentiation, the axles are locked together. You can do this by locking (welding or otherwise modifying) your differential, or by adding a "spool" which is pretty much just a solid block that holds the axle shafts together while providing a place to mount the ring gear. good off road, difficult to steer in front applications, tears stuff up driving on the street.
The Detroit locker (or others, I don't know which are available) has NO differential like above, but it's not truely "locked" so it's more streetable, however unlike a differential it will NEVER allow a wheel to stop unless the transmission stops. It is kind of an interlock that will always allow any axle (which is of course hooked to the wheel) to "freewheel" faster than the driveshaft input, however will NEVER allow any wheel to rotate slower than the driveshaft input. This prevents "dragging" tires in cornering and makes a "locked" vehicle much more streetable, easier to steer in the front, but it's downfall is that unless you're going perfectly straight, the second wheel won't start pulling until after the first one has "broken traction". In multiple axle applications, especially long ones, it takes quite a bit of sliding to get all the wheels to pull, and of course in heavy trucks the tires pull better before they slip, as opposed to trying to "chew" your way through anything.
And then there was the "air locker". Pretty simple in operation, IMO the best option, but pricey and not always as strong, and does require operator input. It is a conventional differential, however there is an added mechanism that when activated (by switched air pressure for an "air locker", or by electric or mechanical cable means), will stop the differential from differentiating, and "lock" the axles shafts (and wheels) on that axle together so that you have (most of) the best of both worlds
Of course, if you're not talking about standard half to one ton pickup axles, then everybody and their brother might not offer fifteen different options for what to do for extra traction, so availability and price might be a key deciding factor in adding these things.
If you've not been into one (or have but can't picture just how it all comes together), check out howstuffworks.com as they have a great animated picture of a differential in action. (search for "differential", they're all great information, but the first one (open differential) should be seen first. That makes the rest of the modified differentials much easier to follow.
houdel said:
Yeah, lots of thoughts. Here's the basic's however.
Starting with a conventional differential, which is open, and requires both wheels to have traction. It sends rotation (not power) to each wheel. If one wheel wishes to move slower, it will send the extra rotation to the other wheel. Great on road, not so great off road. (Actually, just fine off road too, until you find a situation where one wheel on any axle looses a signifigant amount of tracton.
A locked differential would be just that, locked. No differentiation, the axles are locked together. You can do this by locking (welding or otherwise modifying) your differential, or by adding a "spool" which is pretty much just a solid block that holds the axle shafts together while providing a place to mount the ring gear. good off road, difficult to steer in front applications, tears stuff up driving on the street.
The Detroit locker (or others, I don't know which are available) has NO differential like above, but it's not truely "locked" so it's more streetable, however unlike a differential it will NEVER allow a wheel to stop unless the transmission stops. It is kind of an interlock that will always allow any axle (which is of course hooked to the wheel) to "freewheel" faster than the driveshaft input, however will NEVER allow any wheel to rotate slower than the driveshaft input. This prevents "dragging" tires in cornering and makes a "locked" vehicle much more streetable, easier to steer in the front, but it's downfall is that unless you're going perfectly straight, the second wheel won't start pulling until after the first one has "broken traction". In multiple axle applications, especially long ones, it takes quite a bit of sliding to get all the wheels to pull, and of course in heavy trucks the tires pull better before they slip, as opposed to trying to "chew" your way through anything.
And then there was the "air locker". Pretty simple in operation, IMO the best option, but pricey and not always as strong, and does require operator input. It is a conventional differential, however there is an added mechanism that when activated (by switched air pressure for an "air locker", or by electric or mechanical cable means), will stop the differential from differentiating, and "lock" the axles shafts (and wheels) on that axle together so that you have (most of) the best of both worlds
Of course, if you're not talking about standard half to one ton pickup axles, then everybody and their brother might not offer fifteen different options for what to do for extra traction, so availability and price might be a key deciding factor in adding these things.
If you've not been into one (or have but can't picture just how it all comes together), check out howstuffworks.com as they have a great animated picture of a differential in action. (search for "differential", they're all great information, but the first one (open differential) should be seen first. That makes the rest of the modified differentials much easier to follow.
RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Lockers
To elaborate on Kennys comment, If you lift one tire a detroit locker will allow rotation by hand (neutral or driveshaft out) . There is a noticeable clicking noise.If you rotate the driveshaft/yoke it will lock and not turn as one tire is on the ground. If you lift both tires and rotate the yoke/driveshaft both tires lock and turn together. JimK
p.s. Does anyone make a lock-out hub for the 5 ton ???
To elaborate on Kennys comment, If you lift one tire a detroit locker will allow rotation by hand (neutral or driveshaft out) . There is a noticeable clicking noise.If you rotate the driveshaft/yoke it will lock and not turn as one tire is on the ground. If you lift both tires and rotate the yoke/driveshaft both tires lock and turn together. JimK
p.s. Does anyone make a lock-out hub for the 5 ton ???
tsmall07
New member
There is a small amount of mis-information above about detroits. If there is power going to the differential and you aren't turning, the differential is positively locked. It doesn't wait for a wheel to slip. Thats what a limited slip does. A Detroit locker and a limited slip are COMPLETELY different.
The Detroit locker (only the "real" detroit [there are other versions of that have a detroit name, but are limited slip. I think the Detroit true-track is one along with some others. You want the one that only says Detroit Locker (no sub name)]) is a positive locking differential that allows for some differentiation around turns. It is loud, sometimes jerky, but it really works. I've been working with them for years in 4x4 applications. The air lockers are as described above. The "best" solution for cost and performance reasons is generally considered to be a Detroit in the rear and an air locker in the front. A Detroit in the front can make steering difficult (especially with no power steering). Having an air locker in the front would let you unlock if you need to do a lot of steering. Another option (if they're available for trucks this large) is an e-locker. They use electricity to engage the locker instead of air. I know a few people that have snagged their air line on a stick and lost their locker. If I was doing it right now, I'd get Detroits for the rears and an ARB air locker for the front.
The Detroit locker (only the "real" detroit [there are other versions of that have a detroit name, but are limited slip. I think the Detroit true-track is one along with some others. You want the one that only says Detroit Locker (no sub name)]) is a positive locking differential that allows for some differentiation around turns. It is loud, sometimes jerky, but it really works. I've been working with them for years in 4x4 applications. The air lockers are as described above. The "best" solution for cost and performance reasons is generally considered to be a Detroit in the rear and an air locker in the front. A Detroit in the front can make steering difficult (especially with no power steering). Having an air locker in the front would let you unlock if you need to do a lot of steering. Another option (if they're available for trucks this large) is an e-locker. They use electricity to engage the locker instead of air. I know a few people that have snagged their air line on a stick and lost their locker. If I was doing it right now, I'd get Detroits for the rears and an ARB air locker for the front.
Yeah, it would be best to call them unlockers.
Not 5 ton issue but for discussion-
The V-100 was designed with Detroit type lockers front and rear. This may be handy off road but mandatory when swimming. That's because all the tires need to rotate to propel it in water (with any efficiency, and I use that word loosely). Being selectable 4x4 the front locker does not adversely effect handling on the street (4x2). An air locking diff rear is the best choice here. I picked up a M621(Norwegian deuce) locker Tues to replace a std open deuce axle. The complete factory rebuilt air locking diff 2-1/2 ton rear assy w/brakes cost the same as the ARB differential ($1000). The Rockwell design looks much more robust. It uses a special axle shaft with a very long dual splined end. A forked driven collar slides on second set of splines. It locks by linking one axle shaft to the outside of the diff case (one side). JimK
The V-100 was designed with Detroit type lockers front and rear. This may be handy off road but mandatory when swimming. That's because all the tires need to rotate to propel it in water (with any efficiency, and I use that word loosely). Being selectable 4x4 the front locker does not adversely effect handling on the street (4x2). An air locking diff rear is the best choice here. I picked up a M621(Norwegian deuce) locker Tues to replace a std open deuce axle. The complete factory rebuilt air locking diff 2-1/2 ton rear assy w/brakes cost the same as the ARB differential ($1000). The Rockwell design looks much more robust. It uses a special axle shaft with a very long dual splined end. A forked driven collar slides on second set of splines. It locks by linking one axle shaft to the outside of the diff case (one side). JimK
Here are a couple of pics!
Attachments
Eric,
If your 813 is a USMC version It has them, as all the 800 series trucks in the Corps were fitted with them. I had worked on them and drove them when I was in. Furthermore, the USMC's had a plate riveted on the map box saying "THIS VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH DETROIT LOCKER NO-SPIN DIFFERENTIALS". My current USMC 813 has them.
If your 813 is a USMC version It has them, as all the 800 series trucks in the Corps were fitted with them. I had worked on them and drove them when I was in. Furthermore, the USMC's had a plate riveted on the map box saying "THIS VEHICLE EQUIPPED WITH DETROIT LOCKER NO-SPIN DIFFERENTIALS". My current USMC 813 has them.
