- 147
- 146
- 43
- Location
- Hills of / TN
Has anyone tried to bolt on a procharger instead of using a turbo?( Im thinking of using one on a 6.5) I don't think it would be too difficult install But what say you.. Thanks Bruhs
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
Maybe a stupid question But
- Thread starter SteelNinja
- Start date
chevymike
Well-known member
- 580
- 450
- 63
- Location
- San Diego, CA
Curious too. I have thought about it myself.
- 97
- 98
- 33
- Location
- Los Angeles/CA
Supercharged 6.2/6.5 has been done, but not by me. This was an interesting thread a long time ago on the DieselPlace about this topic. Lots of interesting info.
www.dieselplace.com
Project: supercharged 6.2
www.dieselplace.com
Keith_J
Well-known member
- 3,657
- 1,313
- 113
- Location
- Schertz TX
Two types of mechanical driven blowers..positive displacement like Eaton/Roots and centrifugal like Paxton/Procharger.
Positive displacement have the problem of part throttle use. Without a bypass or throttle plate, they will reduce economy by placing a large load on the engine crankshaft and diluting the flame temperature, causing exhaust gas to be excessively cool. At idle, much more fuel would be injected as the injection pump governs idle speed. Boost will be constant, from idle to red line. An Eaton M90 at maximum ratio would give 8 PSI boost and draw 50 Hp.
Centrifugal units would not do much at low speed, having an exponential pressure curve and maximum boost of 10 PSI. A best efficiency of 75%, driving 10 PSI boost at red line would draw about 35 Hp.
A good turbo will add 50 Hp net. It places a 10 Hp load on the engine from back pressure. How can it do this? Exhaust gas has three different types of energy, all drive the turbine. The most obvious is pressure energy. There is 45 to 70 PSI of cylinder pressure when the exhaust valve opens. Without a muffler, the noise from this pressure release is great. In a normal system, this pressure converts partially to velocity. Exhaust that is moving has kinetic energy, I/2 mass X velocity^2. Finally, there is the invisible or often ignored energy, thermal. The turbine extracts energy from hot, speeding gas under pressure. In doing so, the temperature drops, some timeS as much as 400 degrees. And when the turbine is on its peak efficiency, thermal energy is the greatest contributor to shaft torque.
In general, blowers on diesels are best left to scavenge purpose on two strokes. And yes, many two stroke diesels also use turbochargers instead of using a larger blower. These engines open the exhaust valves before the charge port opens, using only the acoustic and heat energy since any back pressure would reduce exhaust gas clearing.
Positive displacement have the problem of part throttle use. Without a bypass or throttle plate, they will reduce economy by placing a large load on the engine crankshaft and diluting the flame temperature, causing exhaust gas to be excessively cool. At idle, much more fuel would be injected as the injection pump governs idle speed. Boost will be constant, from idle to red line. An Eaton M90 at maximum ratio would give 8 PSI boost and draw 50 Hp.
Centrifugal units would not do much at low speed, having an exponential pressure curve and maximum boost of 10 PSI. A best efficiency of 75%, driving 10 PSI boost at red line would draw about 35 Hp.
A good turbo will add 50 Hp net. It places a 10 Hp load on the engine from back pressure. How can it do this? Exhaust gas has three different types of energy, all drive the turbine. The most obvious is pressure energy. There is 45 to 70 PSI of cylinder pressure when the exhaust valve opens. Without a muffler, the noise from this pressure release is great. In a normal system, this pressure converts partially to velocity. Exhaust that is moving has kinetic energy, I/2 mass X velocity^2. Finally, there is the invisible or often ignored energy, thermal. The turbine extracts energy from hot, speeding gas under pressure. In doing so, the temperature drops, some timeS as much as 400 degrees. And when the turbine is on its peak efficiency, thermal energy is the greatest contributor to shaft torque.
In general, blowers on diesels are best left to scavenge purpose on two strokes. And yes, many two stroke diesels also use turbochargers instead of using a larger blower. These engines open the exhaust valves before the charge port opens, using only the acoustic and heat energy since any back pressure would reduce exhaust gas clearing.
- 657
- 1,150
- 93
- Location
- Chester County, PA
I've thought about it... Here is an interesting explanation about using a centrifugal supercharger on a diesel vs a roots style supercharger. An exception to this rule may be the Rotrex supercharger because of the rpms it can reach which has been done here... https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/m1028-6-5-supercharged-4l80e-project-and-questions.198653/
'Using a centrifugal supercharger(Paxton, Vortech, ATI, etc.) on a diesel engine is likely not the best idea. Centrifugals need rpms to make boost. Basically it's the compresser side of a turbo, but driven by a belt. The impeller blades whip the air into the housing or "volute". The faster you spin it, the more boost it makes. What this means, is that you won't make peak boost until redline. Impeller speed is determined by engine rpm. You'll make little if any boost down low. You will be severely lacking low rpm power. Not good for a diesel.
A Roots style or positive displacement blower(Lysholm, Autorotor, Eaton, etc.) is much better suited to a diesel. It draws a fixed amount of air every revolution, no matter what rpm. It's basically an air compressor. This means you will see your peak boost right above idle. They generally give up a bit of high rpm power to a centrifugal, but it's not needed with a diesel anyway.
Generally, a properlly sized and set up turbo will make the low end power of a positive displacement blower, with the top end power of a centrifugal. The biggest advantage to a supercharger will be that it will not lag. Because it is driven directly by the engine, it does not rely on exhaust pressure to spin. It begins to make boost instantly.
From a cost and easyness stand point, you're probably best off converting to a turbo with factory parts. However, if your set on the blower, sell your Paxton get yourself a positive displacement blower. Centrifugals are fine for gassers, especially race cars, but you'll be very disappointed with it in your truck.'
www.dieselplace.com
'Using a centrifugal supercharger(Paxton, Vortech, ATI, etc.) on a diesel engine is likely not the best idea. Centrifugals need rpms to make boost. Basically it's the compresser side of a turbo, but driven by a belt. The impeller blades whip the air into the housing or "volute". The faster you spin it, the more boost it makes. What this means, is that you won't make peak boost until redline. Impeller speed is determined by engine rpm. You'll make little if any boost down low. You will be severely lacking low rpm power. Not good for a diesel.
A Roots style or positive displacement blower(Lysholm, Autorotor, Eaton, etc.) is much better suited to a diesel. It draws a fixed amount of air every revolution, no matter what rpm. It's basically an air compressor. This means you will see your peak boost right above idle. They generally give up a bit of high rpm power to a centrifugal, but it's not needed with a diesel anyway.
Generally, a properlly sized and set up turbo will make the low end power of a positive displacement blower, with the top end power of a centrifugal. The biggest advantage to a supercharger will be that it will not lag. Because it is driven directly by the engine, it does not rely on exhaust pressure to spin. It begins to make boost instantly.
From a cost and easyness stand point, you're probably best off converting to a turbo with factory parts. However, if your set on the blower, sell your Paxton get yourself a positive displacement blower. Centrifugals are fine for gassers, especially race cars, but you'll be very disappointed with it in your truck.'
Supercharger?
www.dieselplace.com
- 1,815
- 943
- 113
- Location
- Paris KY
Ok, that's it. I can't stay quiet on this subject any longer.
Bullet in Australia has everything that you need in one kit. Chevy 6.5 Diesel Engine - Bullet Cars and 4WD - Australia’s Leading Supercharger Specialist This is what I am installing on my P400 6.5 diesel. And while I respect everyone's opinion of all the pro's and con's of a supercharger on a diesel engine, the engineers at Bullet have actually proven that their system works because they race their diesel trucks from one side of Australia to the other. Big words and scientific terminology used by some folk on this forum tend to cloud the decision-making, however Bullet has actually perfected the exact pressure and power flow by casting a special 6.5 intake to maximize the efficiency of the Eaton Harrop HTV2300 blower. The elimination of horsepower requirements for the OEM fan and clutch (which are replaced by an electric radiator-mounted fan) is actually a near-equal trade-off for the horsepower of the blower. This is not hearsay or a marketing ploy; it has actually been proven across the barren backroad raceways across the Outback. Bullet also designed and engineered an integrated coolant-to-air intercooler which mounts between the blower and intake. The coolant is circulated between the intercooler and a grille-mounted after-market radiator by a 24-volt Davies-Craig EBP40 pump with a volume rating of 37 Liters-per-minute. The engineers at Bullet equipped my unit with a 70 mm snout pulley and indicated that this blower speed would produce 5 pounds of boost at idle and 15 pounds at 2100 RPM. These values can be increased or decreased by simply changing the diameter of the pulley. These values are not "calculated", but are "observed" in their race trucks.
It is not my desire or intent to start a big debate on this forum about the feasibility of installing a supercharger on a diesel engine. As human beings, we all have the luxury to make our own decisions about what we do in life, including what equipment we choose to buy and install on our trucks. I spent over a year corresponding with the engineers at Bullet regarding their Roots design, while at the same time carrying on similar correspondence regarding a Rotrex centrifugal unit. All the while catching Hail from my friends for not turbo'ing my engine. In the end, there was really only one decision to make, and that was which pen to use to fill-out the wire transfer form for the money to go to Bullet.
If you are so inclined, watch my rebuild thread in the coming weeks. I am almost ready to begin installing the Bullet intake and blower on my 6.5.
Bullet in Australia has everything that you need in one kit. Chevy 6.5 Diesel Engine - Bullet Cars and 4WD - Australia’s Leading Supercharger Specialist This is what I am installing on my P400 6.5 diesel. And while I respect everyone's opinion of all the pro's and con's of a supercharger on a diesel engine, the engineers at Bullet have actually proven that their system works because they race their diesel trucks from one side of Australia to the other. Big words and scientific terminology used by some folk on this forum tend to cloud the decision-making, however Bullet has actually perfected the exact pressure and power flow by casting a special 6.5 intake to maximize the efficiency of the Eaton Harrop HTV2300 blower. The elimination of horsepower requirements for the OEM fan and clutch (which are replaced by an electric radiator-mounted fan) is actually a near-equal trade-off for the horsepower of the blower. This is not hearsay or a marketing ploy; it has actually been proven across the barren backroad raceways across the Outback. Bullet also designed and engineered an integrated coolant-to-air intercooler which mounts between the blower and intake. The coolant is circulated between the intercooler and a grille-mounted after-market radiator by a 24-volt Davies-Craig EBP40 pump with a volume rating of 37 Liters-per-minute. The engineers at Bullet equipped my unit with a 70 mm snout pulley and indicated that this blower speed would produce 5 pounds of boost at idle and 15 pounds at 2100 RPM. These values can be increased or decreased by simply changing the diameter of the pulley. These values are not "calculated", but are "observed" in their race trucks.
It is not my desire or intent to start a big debate on this forum about the feasibility of installing a supercharger on a diesel engine. As human beings, we all have the luxury to make our own decisions about what we do in life, including what equipment we choose to buy and install on our trucks. I spent over a year corresponding with the engineers at Bullet regarding their Roots design, while at the same time carrying on similar correspondence regarding a Rotrex centrifugal unit. All the while catching Hail from my friends for not turbo'ing my engine. In the end, there was really only one decision to make, and that was which pen to use to fill-out the wire transfer form for the money to go to Bullet.
If you are so inclined, watch my rebuild thread in the coming weeks. I am almost ready to begin installing the Bullet intake and blower on my 6.5.
Keith_J
Well-known member
- 3,657
- 1,313
- 113
- Location
- Schertz TX
How does the Bullet system match boost to fuel rate? If the vehicle is doing road speed with 1/4 throttle yet the boost is 15 PSI, there is a far excess of air which not only consumes 15 HP to produce, it also lowers the efficiency of combustion. And increases oxides of nitrogen.
The indirect injected diesel is most inefficient at idle. Here, excess air is present and flame duration is entirely in the precombustion chamber. This is why these diesels warm up fast as all flame is in the head. And why they have a particular exhaust smell, all from incomplete combustion. The 6.2 engine requires double the fuel to idle than a similar sized direct injection diesel.
Turbochargers designed correctly for diesels are heat powered devices and as such, vary supplied boost pressure based on the fuel rate. A positive displacement supercharger would require a variable ratio transmission based on throttle position. I've only seen this on an old centrifugal blower found on Kaiser Manhattan, the McCullough VS57. It used a V belt drive with a split sheave and spring tensioner. The low efficiency of a positive displacement supercharger precludes variable speed drive.
I don't doubt the Bullet system works. But I doubt it provides anything but high fuel consumption at listed power levels.
The indirect injected diesel is most inefficient at idle. Here, excess air is present and flame duration is entirely in the precombustion chamber. This is why these diesels warm up fast as all flame is in the head. And why they have a particular exhaust smell, all from incomplete combustion. The 6.2 engine requires double the fuel to idle than a similar sized direct injection diesel.
Turbochargers designed correctly for diesels are heat powered devices and as such, vary supplied boost pressure based on the fuel rate. A positive displacement supercharger would require a variable ratio transmission based on throttle position. I've only seen this on an old centrifugal blower found on Kaiser Manhattan, the McCullough VS57. It used a V belt drive with a split sheave and spring tensioner. The low efficiency of a positive displacement supercharger precludes variable speed drive.
I don't doubt the Bullet system works. But I doubt it provides anything but high fuel consumption at listed power levels.
- 1,815
- 943
- 113
- Location
- Paris KY
Keith, I was very plain in my post that I had no desire or intent to start a debate. And I will not engage with you on the subject. I do know that actual results override theory, and the engineers at Bullet have the results. This is the system they use on cross-Australia racing. You have the God-given right to believe (or doubt) anything you want to, but please do not try to force your beliefs (or doubts) on me. This will be my last post in this thread.
Keith_J
Well-known member
- 3,657
- 1,313
- 113
- Location
- Schertz TX
This thread was started by SteelNinja, specifically about centrifugal type superchargers.
Yes, a positive displacement supercharger would be appropriate for certain applications like marine or possibly racing. I have illustrated why they are deleterious to economy and typical road use. I also explained how a properly designed turbosupercharger is the best solution for on road use.
I'm not here to engage in anything but informative purposes.
Interested in the McCullough VS57? Lots of interesting history.. Robert McCullough middle name is Paxton. Yes,, that company and other brands. He bought the old London Bridge and moved it to Lake Havasu AZ. Also the father of the chainsaw.
Yes, a positive displacement supercharger would be appropriate for certain applications like marine or possibly racing. I have illustrated why they are deleterious to economy and typical road use. I also explained how a properly designed turbosupercharger is the best solution for on road use.
I'm not here to engage in anything but informative purposes.
Interested in the McCullough VS57? Lots of interesting history.. Robert McCullough middle name is Paxton. Yes,, that company and other brands. He bought the old London Bridge and moved it to Lake Havasu AZ. Also the father of the chainsaw.
McCulloch Supercharger Website
The McCulloch Supercharger Website. Covers the VS57, VR57 and 30's McCulloch Superchargers. Describes the operation, identification, installation and maintenance of these vintage superchargers
www.vs57.y-block.info
Last edited: