MEP-002a Fuel Injecton Pump Timing Button

[cdisbennett]

I just got a rebuilt injection pump for my generator from Delks. They told me that all I had to do was take out the old timing button and put it in the new IP. Is this really the case or do I have to go through all the timing? Also there are no numbers stamped into the pump.

Thanks

Charlie

 

[Isaac-1]

If the numbers match the markings on the pump you can reuse it, if not you will have to buy another one. There is a pdf on the ambac http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNH8tcOGXOqRwCGhjPx9LA1AE0anCw&cad=rja that shows how to tell which size button you need, they also sell them for about $70 new.

Ike

 

[joesco]

If there are no markings on the pump, you have a challenge ahead. Trust me, I know! Reusing your original button and not knowing if both your old and new IP numbers match is like rolling the dice. BTW, buttons from Ambac are negotiable.

Just make sure you purchase a few "jesus" rings if you buy a new button. As Ike said, please make sure you read and re-read the Ambac manual on both timing methods.

 

[RichardR]

Charlie,

The advice from both Ike and Joe are right. But no matter what you do, you can be sure you have the right button and your timing is right only by doing the flow test (Method 2) in the PDF that Ike refers to above. It's not very hard to do.

You can start with the button out of your old pump, or any other button you have handy. The flow test will tell you if the button you are using is the correct one, or how much the button needs to be changed to get the timing right. See Table 1 in the PDF to select the right button when changing timing. And be careful to hold on to that "jesus" ring when changing buttons, or you will be ordering one of those whether you need a new button or not.

Regards,
Richard

 

[storeman]

Could they have rebuilt your old pump? Is that an option?

 

[cdisbennett]

Thanks for the advice, I was figuring it was going to be a hassle. Delks sells a rebuilt IP for $400 and the two local IP rebuilders wanted $600+ to rebuild so I went the cheap and difficult way. When I talked to Delks the were adamant that all I had to do was put the old button in the new pump, it doesn't even come with a button.

I'll do the flow timing and see what happens, maybe I will get lucky.

One other question is that my flywheel was marked with a "0" and not "PC", is the "0" the same as "PC"?

Charlie

 

[Isaac-1]

Delk's seems to tell that to everyone

 

[joesco]

The two shops I spoke with last year, before purchasing my rebuilt IP said the same thing, use the old button! I wish I had done the flow test timing method, maybe I would have had better results. It just seemed to intimidating to this 56 year old HS graduate!

 

[storeman]

I guess what I meant to ask is whether you could return Delk's unit unused and pay them to rebuild your core, assuming they do that. that way you know your button should work. On the pumps I pull and clean for sale, I keep the button with it. I wonder why they don't, unless its a chance to sell the buttons separately. Did they offer to sell you a button? (I have read here they rarely wear out.)

 

[cdisbennett]

Did the flow timing tonight and had a few problems. I Removed the delivery cap and valve holder and took the spring out and reassembled as directed. When I turned on the fuel pump and moved the flywheel I didn't get any fuel out. Then bled the whole system and still no fuel. Then I took the delivery valve cap off and backed off the Valve holder then I started getting fuel. Is this correct or shoud the valve holder be tight?

After that I then turned flywheel until I got fuel and then till it stopped. It was three marks below the PC mark. So seeing that I had a #1 button I have to go up 6 buttons and it only shows 5 more up.

Is this right? The only thing that I might not have done right is torqued the IP down to the block enough. I couldn't find a torque setting in the manual. Could this be affecting the timing button/timing?

I think on the next one I will just rebuild the IP instead of buying a rebuild

Charlie

 

[storeman]

I'm not sure what they do on a "rebuild" anyway, other than let chemicals eat off the paint, take your fittings (or the other guy's), clean the unit, and take the button (so they can sell it, and the fittings, back to you). i presume they pressure test them but the one rebuild I've seen ran no better than a cleaned unit. Sample of one, so take it for its worth. I believe Tom, down at Gulf Coast does rebuilds for much less (somewhere around $400, if memory serves me) if you provide a core unit.
Jerry

 

[RichardR]

Charlie,

It's been a while since I flow timed one of these IPs, but I'll tell you what I remember. Let's hope that someone with more recent experience and/or a better memory chimes in.

I believe I had exactly the same experience as you did with needing to loosen the delivery valve holder (in addition to removing the delivery valve spring) to get the fuel to flow. I don't think that affects the results. Everything else you did sounds right, but I agree that the results seem questionable.

The nuts holding the IP to the block studs should be torqued to 15 to 16 ft-lb. Not real critical.

Things I can suggest that might have gone wrong include:

1. Is the shim stack between the IP and block the right thickness? The total thickness needed should be stamped by the block manufacturer on the block near the IP mounting. The shim(s) should stay with the block and be used with replacement IPs unless the camshaft is changed. Typical shim thickness is around 0.015 inches. Any error in shim thickness would translate directly into button thickness (or rather thinness). If I understand what you said above, you are measuring that you need about 0.018 inch thicker button, which would correspond to a shim stack that needs to be 0.018 inch thinner. The shim stack also controls the IP to cam gear lash, so it shouldn't be changed as a substitute for changing the button.

2. Are you sure you got the IP to cam gear mesh right? I don't know how a one-tooth error would translate into timing error, but I'd guess it would create about a 5-10 degree error. That may be about what you are seeing.

3. Are the marks on the flywheel you are using to measure the PC error about 0.2 inches apart? One of the manuals says to measure the PC error (the distance between the PC mark on the flywheel and the pointer) with a ruler, and that every 0.1 inch corresponds to 1 button number, or 0.003 inches button thickness.

Somehow, I think that the answer is right before us and that you are going to get this worked out with a simple adjustment. Let me know if I haven't confused you enough.

Regards,
Richard

 

[NJ_Toolnut]

Hi Everyone,

I'm very closely following this thread with a huge amount of (vested) interest, since I will be performing exactly this same procedure this weekend now that I have my 003 engine back together following catastrophic damage caused by a loose nut in the gearcase. The complete story is in the thread below:

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/auxillary-equipment/79441-first-post-introduction-my-mep003-saga-date.html

As I noted in my thread (around page 7, the thread is really quite an epic), I have a #14 timing button currently installed in my IP and since my IP shim was original to the block I bought from storeman, I know I have the correct shim for this block. With a #14 timing button, I will have even less margin for PC adjustment than Charlie has if I obtain a port closing result that indicates my timing is late with the button currently installed in my IP.

In addition to the three possible confounding issues Richard posted, it appears to me there could potentially be at least one more: It could be possible that the pointer that indicates the angular position of the flywheel is not calibrated correctly. There is a procedure for recalibrating this pointer in TM-34. I checked my pointer via this procedure so I know it is very close to actual port closing in terms of the position of the #1 cylinder's piston. Charlie, if you have a dial indicator and want to perform this calibration, there are some details in my thread.

Timing these IPs should not be rocket science, especially given all of the documentation and experience available. Getting a result that indicates you need a button #17 (0.137") that is not even manufactured makes no sense, and appears to indicate either the pointer is miscalibrated or one or more of the issues Richard mentioned is confounding the outcome. I will post the results of my timing attempt in my thread. Maybe once we've posted enough collective experience here, we will be able to better understand why we sometimes get nonsensical results even though we are following the correct procedure.

Stan

 

[cdisbennett]

I am reinstalling the injectors and I cna't find anything in the manuals for this. Can someone direct me to the correct manual & Page? The installations seems straight forward but they do not specify a torque for the installation.

Thanks

Charlie

 

[storeman]

Yes they do. There is a torque value table in the Tm but I can't get to it right now. Believe it is in the -12.
Jerry

 

[storeman]

It is a table listing all torque values for all bolts. Sorry to be so unhelpful but am not on the computer that has my TMs.
Jerry

 

[storeman]

It is page 28 of the -34 TM, Table 1.1
Jerry

 

[cdisbennett]

I finally got the generator running. Did the flow check again and it was one timing mark off. Had a friend who is a diesel mechanic come over and give me some guidance, we installed the pump with the original timing button and he indicated that the amount the timing was off wouldn't make much difference.

HIt the switch and it started right up. Now the only problem is it was running to fast and I couldn't get the speed down. Tried all the adjustmnet and nothing seemed to work. Then finally noticed the arm coming from the govenor was loose and wasx rotating and hitting the fuel shut off solenoid. Adjusted the arm and tightened it down and now it runs great and puts out juice.

Time to start on the next one.

Charlie

 

[NJ_Toolnut]

I finally got the generator running. Did the flow check again and it was one timing mark off. Had a friend who is a diesel mechanic come over and give me some guidance, we installed the pump with the original timing button and he indicated that the amount the timing was off wouldn't make much difference.

HIt the switch and it started right up. Now the only problem is it was running to fast and I couldn't get the speed down. Tried all the adjustmnet and nothing seemed to work. Then finally noticed the arm coming from the govenor was loose and wasx rotating and hitting the fuel shut off solenoid. Adjusted the arm and tightened it down and now it runs great and puts out juice.

Time to start on the next one.

Charlie

Congrats on your success!

My OO3 load tested OK with the timing one mark early on port closing, but it was able to recover more quickly from a sudden heavy load after I installed the timing button required to get port closing right on the money. At the same time, I finally got the governor adjusted correctly and this factor could also have been responsible for the difference I observed.

 

[storeman]

Well done! Great satisfaction in getting it "right' yourself.
Jerry