MEP-002A User - seeks educational relationship on lift pumps - ha

[TroyHog]

Hey guys - Thanks to everyone that always helps me on this site. I appreciate it really.

My 200A is hooked up to a stick welder that I use on the farm for building pipe corrals and pipe fencing corners. Let me first say that I have neglected to keep the fuel fresh in this gen set and that is totally on me. It sat all winter as it was too wet here to work and get the heavy trucks around on the farm.

I changed the oil in it this week and fired it up - ran fine loaded - and I welded with it at the house - then took it to the pens for a repair and after I struck a bead it went to barely running at all.

Second confession - I was under the impression (based on our old dozers sitting for years and firing up) that the diesel fuel was not at high risk of deterioration. Apparently this is on me also, because when I took the insert out of the tank for inspection - it has a gummy, almost tar like substance on it - red or clay color and the fuel smells old.

Here is what I've done so far. I drained the tank and put a little fresh fuel in it. I cleaned the strainer out on the first filter housing and the ones on the bottom of the lift pumps also. I changed both fuel filters. I removed the line from the top of the tank and blew air through the lift pumps. I do have air coming out at the strainer housing. I blew back into the tank also.

I do not have any fuel flowing from the lift pump to fill the first filter housing. I hooked up a hose to the last lift pump to see if it would suction from an alternate source. No go.

I am trying to figure out if I understand the series setup on the lift pumps properly. If any one pump is working right - will it pump through the others and supply enough fuel?

My questions are:

Do all three lift pumps have to be bad for my scenario? When I have the switch on prime for AUX I hear the pump trying to run and its the normal rattle of the electric pump - when the switch is on the second prime and run it just tics every second or so. Should I have the normal rattle in this position also?

Am I crazy in thinking that the setup is complex? Can you just get a 24v lift pump and put it inline - basically bypass the original setup?

Does anyone have a good source/part #'s for the lift pumps? The last one seems to have been replaced at one time or another - I will try and post a pic. The other two appear original to the machine.

Did I damage the lift pumps by putting the air to them?

How long will this new age fuel sit before this condition occurs - or do you guys think something else is at play? I've always used my off road "ruby red" as we used to call it in this gen set.

 

[Guyfang]

Have you downloaded the TM's?

 

[frank8003]

Have you downloaded the TM's?

Would be good to read and understand what it is in the TM's

 

[TroyHog]

Yes I have the TM - could not find anything about blowing air through, but used them for the screen cleaning procedure.

 

[Guyfang]

Lets start out simple. In the TM, it explains that the gen set runs on 2 electric fuel pumps. The fuel pump you showed in the pix, is the AUX fuel pump. It is used for pumping from a foreign fuel source, to the gen set fuel tank. Nothing more. So it has nothing to do with the non running condition of your set.

As to blowing air through the fuel system, its not something that the military normally would do.

If you have the right fuel pumps, they should pump through a "dead" pump, and I would guess they would let air through also. First, lossen the hose from the tank, to the first pump. Do you get fuel out? If so, tighten it up. Then loosen the input hose on the second pump. Get fuel out of it, when you put the start switch in the run position? If so, then losen the hose on the output side of the first Filter, (really a strainer) and let the pumps run. Get fuel? Continue until you get to the IP.

 

[Guyfang]

Also, have you taken the fuel pumps apart? here is a picture of how they are assembled.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Does anyone have a good source/part #'s for the lift pumps?

How long will this new age fuel sit before this condition occurs - or do you guys think something else is at play?

Also, verify that the 2 main fuel pumps in series are the same model # pumps FACET 480517E. A sign that someone replaced one with an incorrect pump (non passthrough design) is mismatching part #'s. In fact, you should verify both pump #'s are the proper Facet pass through model (pn is stamped on the mtg flange). Here is a link how to identify the P/N: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00023

The most reasonable place that I've found in the past for Facet Pumps was "Yacht Supply Depot" however their website now seems unreachable (out of business?).

As far as how long fuel lasts...The answer is "it varies". If you store diesel in an airtight environment (Jerry Cans) it lasts much longer. If in a vented fuel tank environment, not as long as the old Diesel formulation that did not included biodiesel. Now with Biodiesel added it can go bad as soon as 1 yr if stored in vented tank and exposed to excess humidity. The daily heat/cool cycle will condense moisture in a vented tank in a few months and that is what can start the cycle of fuel deterioration. You can treat it (Biocide, plus other additives) but even with treating it eventually will go bad if fuel is not burned.

 

[TroyHog]

Just an update: just thought I would post a pic of a bush fix - if you guys need something fast. O'Rileys has a 24v lift pump for like $45 - that is 7psi. I hooked this up to get me out of a jam with the cattle - so I could weld the pen up. I am wanting to put the original pumps back - I'm sure its a better system. I am currently trying to troubleshoot the original pumps - I will consult the TM's. Thanks for all the advice, as usual. I did clean the screens on both lift pumps and they were just clicking - not trying to pump.

 

[Guyfang]

When you say clicking. How fast?

 

[TroyHog]

Guyfang,

About once per second.
The aux pump position will rattle on like its trying to pump - although I could not get it to pull fuel from a container.

Thanks!!

 

[Guyfang]

Troy,
Lets start different. Are you sure you have hooked up the fuel system right? Hoses and electrical system? Look at PDF reader page # 50 in the TM5-6115-585-12. There is a simple drawing of the fuel system. Start with removing all the wires to the three pumps. Put S1 in the Run-Aux-Fuel position. Use a multimeter to find the wire that is hot. Hook it up to the AUX pump. Place the S1 in the Prime-Run position. test the other two wires. They should be hot. Hook them up to the last 2 pumps. Doesn't matter what wire goes to what pump.

Then trace the Aux fuel system with your hand. Start at the inlet nipple, pump, fuel cut off solenoid, (this solenoid is only used in the Aux position, and its only function is to shut the solenoid off, when the fuel tank is full, from an Aux source) and then trace the hose from the solenoid to the fuel tank. Now lets test the Aux system. Place the S1 in Ru-Aux-Fuel position. Two things should happen. One is the Aux pump starts to pump. The other is that the fuel cut off solenoid opens the valve and fuel is then pumped from a foreign source. So unscrew the C-Plug from the solenoid and measure from a good ground to pin A of J5, (the solenoid C-Plug). You should get 24 VDC. Stick the plug back on the solenoid, and it should click. Do that a few times. Just because it clicks, is no indication it works, but it is a sign that something is moving in the solenoid. Then shut the S1 off. Hook up a hose to the AUX inlet. Turn the S1 back to the AUX position. Let the pumps run for several minuets. Open up the fuel tank, and listen for fuel coming in.
The fuel pump should run until the Fuel Tank Float switch, (S3 switch) comes up, and shuts the power off to the Fuel shut off solenoid. When that happens, the Aux pump IS NOT turned off, it just can not pump fuel any more due to the solenoid being closed. Try this first. Its easy. If the Aux pumps was running, it could have been filling the tank, and you not know it? So check it. If everything is hooked up like I just explained, and the Aux pump is running then it can only be doing one of two things. Pumping fuel into the fuel tank, or it has an air leak someplace and is only pumping air.