MEP-802a - need help starting it. Likely fuel or injector?

[FriendshipUSA]

Hi,
I recently acquired a 1994 MEP-802a with 20hrs. Inspection suggests it has the original 20hrs and not a refurbish unit. Need help in starting it.

My first attempted to start it I found the injector return line leaking everywhere. Over the years it looks like the line became putty-like. I was able to mold it flat or into a ball with my fingers. I've replaced it with a new line.

My second attempt to start it showed no leaks. But no luck on a start. It has good compression and cranks well. I believe the problem is that fuel is not getting into the engine. Do I need to bleed the fuel system or injectors? How do I do this? What else can I try? The generator has been sitting over 20 years. What else do I need to do?

Thanks in-advance for any help.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[FriendshipUSA]

typo

 

[Daybreak]

Read the forum

 

[hammick]

Make sure you fuel pump is pumping fuel. Just bought an 803a and the fuel pump was making noise but wasn't pumping any fuel. I swapped it out with the aux fuel pump and it fired right up. The aux pump is behind the side cover where the fuel fill is.

 

[FriendshipUSA]

Make sure you fuel pump is pumping fuel. Just bought an 803a and the fuel pump was making noise but wasn't pumping any fuel. I swapped it out with the aux fuel pump and it fired right up. The aux pump is behind the side cover where the fuel fill is.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have some time to work on it in a couple of weeks. I also found in the forum the tech manuals and the information to bleed the fuel system. I'll report my findings.

 

[Guyfang]

The system is self bleeding. Having said that, it can at times take some serious cranking over to get it bled. You can help it by putting the S-1 in the prime position, and cracking the fuel lines from the pump to the engine. Don't have to do them all, but a few. AND, like Daybreak says, read the forum. There is a tremendous amount of info, in the old threads.

 

[FriendshipUSA]

"... putting the S-1 in the prime position, and cracking the fuel lines from the pump to the engine. ..."

Thank you, but don't fully understand. What is the "S-1"? I'll do some homework on forum.

It will be a couple of weekends before I'll have time to work it. I'll keep the
post update as I make progress.

 

[hammick]

Thank you, but don't fully understand. What is the "S-1"? I'll do some homework on forum.

It will be a couple of weekends before I'll have time to work it. I'll keep the
post update as I make progress.

S1 is the master switch on the operating panel. Put it in the prime and run position (2:00 on the dial). The main fuel pump will be activated and fuel will run to the injectors and then back to the tank through the return lines. This is a good time to check for leaks. Crack the fuel line from the injector pump. Wrap a rag around it to catch the diesel fuel that will spray out. This should eliminate any air that is in the fuel system.

Remember that the 7.5a breaker behind the control panel needs to be pushed in for the genset to operate.

 

[Daybreak]

Thank you, but don't fully understand. What is the "S-1"? I'll do some homework on forum.

It will be a couple of weekends before I'll have time to work it. I'll keep the
post update as I make progress.

Howdy,
You have not given any information about the unit. What you have done and what is not done.
steps going forward.
download the TM's (Tech Manual's) for your unit. Do a bunch of reading. Browse the forums
How many hours? was the exhaust flap intact? does it shows signs of water in the engine? Do you have 2 good batteries? Have you drained out all fluids? have you installed new fuel filter and fuel cartridge? have you put on a new oil filter and new 15w-40 diesel oil? after having all the fuel drained, have you filled it with fresh diesel? have you added anything to the diesel? after filling it with diesel, do you have any leaks? after filling it with diesel, you now need to fill the fuel cartridge and fuel filter. (S-1 =your main start switch preheat, off, prime & run aux, prime & run, start) batteries installed, fuel filled, no leaks, dead crank switch set to normal (inside engine compartment) phase selection set to what you want (behind front panel, select 3 phase? 1 phase 120/240?) OK, turn the master switch to prime and run, you might wait here for 2-5 minutes, listen to the sounds, you hear a hollow sound, and then it start getting a more solid full thicker sound... the fuel flows thru the system filling the filters and back to the fuel tank thru the fuel return lines. Since your return lines decomposed, I would think junk is all in the filters, that is why you change them. As the pressure builds in the fuel filter's and lines and return lines, look for leaks. no leaks.. thick sound from the pump? finish turning the master switch to start... wait, hold it there, you simply do not turn it to start and quickly let go. You turn it to start and hold it there, until you see good oil pressure.. above 25 psi, ok, now let go. ok, its running, you need to set the idle so its at 60Hz, and the voltage then adjusted to 240 volts. again check the system over for operating properly, anything leaking? bad noises? are the gauges working? do you have your meter handy? check the power at the convenience receptacle, trip it, reset it. Do you have a way to put a load on your unit? you do not load the unit with the convenience receptacle, it only supports 10 amps, the reset fuse of it is behind the front panel. You load the unit thru the lugs. also have a good ground. you onward to using your MEP-802A with 20 hours.

 

[Guyfang]

You hit it right on the head Mike!

 

[FriendshipUSA]

Daybreak, Hammick, Guying: Awesome feedback and plan forward. Thank you.

All - life got in the way. I was not able to get to the generator this weekend due to other priority items. My calendar has a few days after work this week to give it another try. I should have more time next weekend.

To address the questions asked:

How many hours?
The generator has 20-hrs. I believe these are the original hours based on inspection of the generator. (see batteries status below)

was the exhaust flap intact?
Yes

does it shows signs of water in the engine?
NO

Do you have 2 good batteries?
The original batteries (light green in color) were in the generator. The yellow sticker on them states a 05/1994 manufacturing date. The batteries were all dried out. I filled them with distilled water but they won't take a charge. … I still have them. If someone knows of a trick to get them back online, I’m all-ears.

I will be buying new batteries but did not want spend the money now. So I improvised, a workaround:

Using two cars and two sets of jumper cables, I was able to get the 24-volts needed to start the generator. I did it this way:
a) Park two cars facing each other (so that each car's battery are physically close to each other).
b) Using the first jumper cable:
The first side of the jumper cable: Attach the cable's positive red clamp to the first car's batter positive terminal (+), then, attach the cable's negative black clamp to the second car's battery negative terminal.
The jumper cable other end: attach the cable's positive clamp to the generator's positive terminal (+) that feeds the starter, then, attach the cable's negative clamp to the generator's negative terminal (-) that is the generator's ground.
c) Using the second jumper cable:
Attach the jumper cable's red clamp to the first car's battery negative (-) terminal, then, attached the jumper cable's other red clamp to the second's car's battery positive terminal. The jumper cable's black clamps are not needed and are use.

Have you drained out all fluids?
The generator was only drained of its diesel fuel. I filled it with fresh. The other fluids look good in color, feel, and smell.

have you installed new fuel filter and fuel cartridge?
I have not replaced them when I first tried to start the generator a few weeks back. The local auto parts store did not have them in stock. I will have to get them on online.

Have you added anything to the diesel?
NO

have you put on a new oil filter and new 15w-40 diesel oil?
I have not purchased the filters yet. My local auto parts store did not have the size. I will have to get them on line. I have not replaced the diesel oil. It looked OK.

after filling it with diesel, do you have any leaks?
Yes there were leaks as describe earlier. The first attempt had several found on the injector’s return line. The line was replaced. When I attempted to start it after the fix it showed no leaks.


Plan forward:
I plan to order the oil & fuel filters on line.

As suggested, I plan to break open the injector lines to bleed the air out of the system. I’ll set the S1 switch to prime. Bleeding is also described in the tech manual.

Before starting, the generator will be set to 120/240V. Electrical testing to follow when the generator is running. I will have to make a cable to load test it to the electric water heater (30A breaker).

I’ll keep the post updated as progress is made.

 

[Guyfang]

Onward, and upward. PPPPPPP. The seven P's.

Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. You are more than halfway to getting this set running!

 

[FriendshipUSA]

z

 

[FriendshipUSA]

All -

I had a little time after work to attempt it again. No luck.

Synopsis:

1) Purchased the filters through Ebay. I expect them early next week. Confirmed the current 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] stage filter was OK to use.

2) Setup the 24-volt workaround

3) Generator configuration:
S1 master switch set to run on primary pump
Internal engine switch set to normal

4) Test 1: ran the primary fuel pump for 4-5 minutes, then, attempted to start it. … No luck (repeated the attempt done last time with the same expected result)

5) Ran the primary fuel pump and purged the fuel lines by opening up the injector line caps and backing off the body valve the line caps are attached to (as describe in the tech manual). After a few minutes, diesel fuel started to flow out each line. The body valves and fuel line caps were tighten closed.

6) Test 2: Attempted to start the engine. I cranked the engine several times for approximately 1-2 minutes each cranking cycle. … No luck with a start, not even a pop.

Observations:
1) The gauges appear to be working
2) The engine oil pressure was slightly over 25psi during the cranking attempts.
3) The solenoid that operates the injector pump arm got very hot during the starting attempts. The solenoid is below the injector lines and to the right of the injector pump.
4) The exhaust flap on top of the generator would open and close during the starting attempts.


Analysis:
The injector lines were purged with diesel fuel. There was no evidence the engine attempting to start.

This suggests fuel is still not getting to the engine. Some thoughts why:
1) The internal engine switch maybe broke or it's wiring faulty causing it NOT to go into the normal mode.
2) The item (fuel cutoff solenoid?) that the internal engine switch operates may be broke
3) The injector pump is not working
4) The S1 switch to turns on the fuel flow into the engine may be faulty
5) others?

Are there some simple tests to confirm if the internal engine switch or the S1 switch is working properly?

What does the internal engine switch work, a fuel cutoff solenoid? Where is it and how do I test it?

How can I test the injector pump?

Any thoughts or ideas are welcome.

 

[Guyfang]

Partner,

You need to read the manuals. There are diagrams in the -10 and 24 manuals that explain how each step to the starting process works.

1. There is no injector pump. There are two of them. One for each injector. To see if you are getting fuel to the injectors, remove the input line to each injector. See if anything is comming out.

2. What is an "internal engine switch? I assume, and that always gets me in trouble, but assume you mean the S-10 switch, (dead crank switch). If so, it needs to be in the normal/run position. The TM explains how to check it. I have never see one go bad, but you never know. Or its wired wrong. But if the engine turns over, its probably wired right. You can check it against the wire schematics.

3. 3) The solenoid that operates the injector pump arm got very hot during the starting attempts. The solenoid is below the injector lines and to the right of the injector pump.

The solenoid is the L-1 fuel cutoff solenoid. It starts and shuts off the engine. It does not operate the injector pump. If it gets real hot, that's because you have it engaged too long, (hard to believe) or because its maybe bad. Disconnect the linkage. Crank the engine and see if you can get the engine to start withe the linkage. Do not rev it up like a race car. If it starts, then shut it down. Test to see if you have voltage needed to operate the solenoid. The test procedure is in the TM. You can also test the solenoid to see if its working. Its in the TM.

You never told us if the L-1 solenoid MOVES when the set is cranked over with the S-1. That's important. Because if the solenoid does not move the fuel rack into the start/run position, it aint gonna start.

4. There are testing procedures for EVERYTHING in the TM's. Crack the books.

Don't worry about the filters and servicing it yet. Make it run first. You need to take this one step at a time.

 

[FriendshipUSA]

Guyang,

Thanks for the information. It was right on!

I did a test and some research. As suggested I pulled one (not both) input line. Nothing came out. So, it is likely a pump problem. The tech manual (TM 9-2815-250-24&P, pages 3-50 to 3-53) instructs removing the pump, cleaning it with dry-cleaning solvent, and reinstalling it. I will need to get new gasket set to install it properly. Do you know where I can get these?

You are correct, it is the L-1 cutoff solenoid. It extends when the dead crank (s-10) switch is used. It retracts in when using the S1 switch to start the engine. It is energized when trying to start it, so it should get warm/hot.

I did remove and looked at the secondary fuel filter. It was like new.

The next step is to remove and clean the pump. It may be some time before I can get to it.

I will keep the post updated as I progress forward.

Cheers

 

[FriendshipUSA]

FYI -
Tech manual: TM 9-2815-250-24&P, Section II, figure 12, identifies the pump gasket part number. There are 3 different part numbers. They differ by thickness. The crankcase is stamped with a number that states which gasket thickness to get.

 

[FriendshipUSA]

All

The generator is working! Thanks for the help everyone.

What I think happened:
I believe the fuel in the injector pumps dried out after 20+ years sitting. A residual film was left on the pump's cylinder and piston walls. When I cranked the engine the cam internal to the motor pushed the pump's piston up through the residual film. But, the pump’s returned spring was not strong enough to push it back through the film. So the pump stayed in the up position and stopped pumping fuel to the injectors.

What I did to fix it:

Disassembly:
1) Remove the two pumps and the 4 to 5 spacer gaskets each pump had. I marked one pump "L" (Left) and the other "R" (right). I kept the original gasket set with each pump.
Note - The gaskets are made of tuff plastic and are reusable. Their combined thickness sets the cylinder’s timing. So, don’t mix and match. If you need to replace one or more spacer gaskets, then, measure all them together and buy the right amount to bring the total set to what you measured.
2) Remove the value body assembly cap from the pump by using an 18-mm socket. Then remove the value assembly.
Note - There are several parts to watch for. These are: a spring, the upper spring stop, the lower valve (2-parts), and two slightly different diameter metal washers used for gaskets.
3) Inspect the pump and determine if the piston is stuck. My inspected showed that the pump piston was stuck in the up position.
4) *** Important *** before removing the piston from the pump body look at the piston's top (through the valve body side). There is a slot on top of the piston. You need to where this slot is pointing so that it you can correctly re-assembly the piston back into the pump.
Note: There are two ways to put the piston back into the cylinder during reassembly. One is right the other is not.
5) Remove the pump from the cylinder: Put the pump in a vise with the valve assembly side up. I softly tap out the piston using a long flat tip punch. The piston, the piston's return spring and its retainer will drop out from the bottom.
6) Clean out the residual film from the piston and cylinder walls. (I used carburetor cleaning because I had it on hand. The tech manual suggested using dry cleaning solution)

Injector pump Reassembly:
1) Reassemble the piston into the cylinder making sure the piston is correctly orientated in the cylinder with top of the piston slot pointed in the right direction. Push the piston all the way up into the cylinder.
2) Flip the piston upside down so that you are looking at the cylinder’s bottom.
3) Using a slotted screwdriver, lightly tap it with a small hammer to mushroom (very slightly) the cylinder’s bottom wall edge. This will prevent the piston from dropping out for step 4 but permit the piston to ride up and down freely in the cylinder. Be careful. Only a very small indent is needed. The one I did was barely noticeable.
4) Install the piston's spring and retainer.
NOTE: this was not easy for me. I did it by putting the pump upside down in a vise, slipping the spring over cylinder, then installing the spring retainer. I used pliers to hold the retainer while pushing against the spring.
5) Install the value body assembly: Put the pump in a vise with the value body side up. First install the larger of the two washers, then the rest of components. These include the smaller washer, valve (2-parts), spring, and spring stop. Lastly install the valve body cap using an 18-mm socket.

Installing the pumps:
Note: The tech manual was very specific that the pumps are to be installed in a counter clockwise position. If it is not correctly install, then, the engine may not stop running.
1) With the pump in your hand, hold the bottom arm and rotate the pump’s valve body counter-clockwise.
2) Install each pump with its gasket set in the same place it was pulled out (“L” on the left side and “R” on the right). Be sure to place the injector pump's fuel line fitting to right of the hold down stud.
3) Install the hold down bracket on the stud and fighting the bolt.
4) Install the fuel line.

After I installed the pumps I tested it. It was successful in starting and in stopping.

 

[Guyfang]

Now you need to start checking the rest of it out. The PMCS in the users TM is a good way to start.

 

[FriendshipUSA]

Thanks for the next step. Will work it when I have more time.

Update:
I bought on Craigslist a used motorcycle trailer. It was a great price and was rated at 3,200 pounds. I plan to mount the generator later this weekend.

My next expense are the batteries. The trailer's tag and title expense will come late next month (Maryland is expensive).

Someone on Craigslist has for sale a 50-foot 30A marian grade cable. It has four metal connectors on each plug. The cable has one male-end and the other end is a female end. I assume the cable to be waterproof. The price is attractive, but, I not sure if this is the right set up for the house. ... I need to do more homework.

I'll keep the post updated as I move forward.

Cheers