Mineral oil as fuel

[40grit]

Dmetalmiki, you are misinformed, here maybe this will help you:

The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. At this temperature the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. A slightly higher temperature, the fire point, is defined as the temperature at which the vapor continues to burn after being ignited. Neither of these parameters are related to the temperatures of the ignition source or of the burning liquid, which are much higher. The flash point is often used as one descriptive characteristic of liquid fuel, but it is also used to describe liquids that are not used intentionally as fuels.
Examples of fuel flash points
Petrol (gasoline) is designed for use in an engine which is driven by a spark. The fuel should be premixed with air within its flammable limits and heated above its flash point, then ignited by the spark plug. The fuel should not preignite in the hot engine. Therefore, gasoline is required to have a low flash point and a high autoignition temperature.

Diesel is designed for use in a high-compression engine. Air is compressed until it has been heated above the autoignition temperature of diesel; then the fuel is injected as a high-pressure spray, keeping the fuel-air mix within the flammable limits of diesel. There is no ignition source. Therefore, diesel is required to have a high flash point and a low autoignition temperature.

Petrol:
Flash point: > -43 °C (-45 °F [negative, below freezing point of water at +32 F])
Autoignition temperature: 246 °C (475 °F)
Diesel:
Flash point: >62 °C (143 °F)
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C (410 °F)
Jet Fuel:
Flash Point: >38 °C (100 °F)
Autoignition Temperature: 210 °C (410 °F)
Kerosene:
Flash point: >38-72 °C (100-162 °F)
Autoignition temperature: 220 °C (428 °F)

so diesel fuel ISN'T Flammable, it's combustable, big difference. You can take a rag soaked and burning with diesel fuel and put it out by rapidly stuffing it into a 5 gal bucket full of diesel...don't try that with gasoline which is flammable. the difference is the temp at which they will readily turn into a vapor which is ignitable when combined with air( think of spilling both diesel and gasoline(petrol) seperately on a cold day, the gas will evaporate much, much faster than the diesel. this is due to the low temp at which gasoline readily turns into a vapor.
The liquid fuel isn't actually burning, it's the vapor coming off the material. IIRC, to be considered flammable it has to readily form vapors below 100*F.

On a side note, Rudolph Diesel originally ran his diesels on peanut oil !!!!
this is why they also run on biodiesel ( think about the last time you saw a deep fat fryer on fire, they get super hot, but don't really burn unless you really screw up), vegetable oils, and other combustible but not flammable liquids.

also, there will be more residual from burning diesel due to all the additives... new mineral oil has to be a lot purer than standard diesel ( meaning diesel is allowed to have a lot more accidental things added to it, like water for one)

 

[dmetalmiki]

phew......kin..eck! mindboggling or what! lol..but thats the reason our Multiz DONT KNOCK (on petrol) and such..as (u point out)our fuels dont actually ignite/burn UNTILL CLEAR of the piston rescession where it it "pooled" and delivered as a swirl/vortex to IGNITE when dispersed into the air in the head....unbeknown to many..(specially over here!) where they tend to have all sorts of (rubbish!!) chucked in..with the conviction..(that) "oh they will run on ANYTHING" ! hmmph!! they are VERY sophisticated(complex) and thechnically suberb unit...

 

[roger-wilco-66]

I had an interesting conversation today with a technician from a company that services transformers and such. I can have as much used mineral transformer oil from them as I want to. The only drawback is that he said one has to be careful not to grab a barrel of oil which is marked as pcb contaminated.
He explained that old transformers, expecially those which have wooden parts in the inside (???), have had fillings containing pcb. Although they have been filled with mineral oil for years pcb still can be found in the drainage. Expecially the type with the wood, because the wood is soaked with the pcb and not washed out easily.
Don't know what happens chemically to those residues when you run them through through a combustion process in a diesel engine, but I wouldn't want to find out in the long run when it is harmful.
So, if I can get the stuff uncontamiated, I'll go for it, otherwise I'll keep my fingers off.


Regards,
Mark

 

[sailor2000]

The PCBs were added as a fire retardant to transformer oils, before they found out it is a carcinogen that does not bio-degrade... ever.... The 'mineral oils' are a middle distillate that is lighter than motor oil but much heavier (atomic weight wise) than diesel... it is used in transformers as an insulating medium between the live parts of transformers and also to conduct the heat from the windings to the shell where it can dissipate to the air. If you burn PCB laden oil, you are probably spewing PCBs where ever you drive... but I will let a Chemical Engineer chime in on that...

 

[jimk]

Diesel:
Flash point: >62 °C (143 °F)
Autoignition temperature: 210 °C (410 °F)

The actual temperature may vary. Flash point measures differently depending on the method used - closed cup or open cup. F.P. is legally required to be above 100.4*F(38*C) USA, 104*F(40*C) Canada, and 131*F(55*C) Europe [all closed cup]. Additives have an effect.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6758870-description.html

Hess MSDS sheet #9909(diesel fuel) lists auto-ignition temperature at 494*F(257*C).

http://www.hess.com/EHS/msds.htm (in a .pfd file)

 

[AaronHorrocks]

So what's the latest news? anyone use Mineral Oil as a fuel yet?

I found this bit from wiki:
Firespinning
Mineral oil is the main fuel used by professional firespinners and firebreathers. It is chosen for its high flashpoint and low burning temperature. As a firebreathing fuel it is ideal because it will not tend to burn as a liquid, due to the high flashpoint, thus preventing blowback.

....it sounds like a fuel to me!

 

[roger-wilco-66]

I use roughly 50% Diesel and 50% transformer oil or used motor oil (both filtered) in my deuce at the moment. I have had mixtures up to about 80% oil, but then it smokes pretty strong, expecially when cold. I don't want the firefighters pull up when I start the truck.
In my opinion the truck runs better as with pure diesel.
Does a firebreather have a C- or a D-turbo?

 

[AaronHorrocks]

I work for an electrical utility, I wonder if i can score transformer oil too!

 

[wdbtchr]

Actually the proper method for disposing of PCBs is burning. The company I used to work for used to manufacture PCBs and were required to take it back for disposal, part of the RICRA law the so called "Cradle to Grave law.

 

[ohnuts]

In the motor and transformer repair business. We see either dielectric oil in transformers and most pumps. And vegetable oil in some pumps. The only easy test to see which is petroleum base, is to chill them in the freezer. The corn oil will turn semi solid while the petroleum product stays fluid.

Most of the transformers we rebuild have been drained and refilled. The contaminated stuff is mostly history. But an old plant that has been down for twenty years and is just getting leveled could be the source of a lot of contaminated gear.

 

[ETHOS]

i may need to get in touch with a utility company

 

[wdbtchr]

i may need to get in touch with a utility company

Or possibly large industrial plants that have their own internal electrical distrabution systems. I've seen a lot of oil from transformers hauled off from inside the chemical plant where I worked. Of course back then I didn't have any diesel engines to feed.