Not starting because no fuel?

carhug12

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Long time lurker, it's because of y'all I bought an M35A2. I have previously searched the forum and couldn't find an answer, so I am posting. This could entirely be from not having enough experience to search properly, if so, my apologies in advance.

Below is a youtube link showing the problem.

I was doing preventative maint.
1) Start engine, started up fine, no issues
2) Run a can of SeaFoam intake through.( Squirts into air intake)
3) 9/10 of the way through the can realize can states, NOT FOR DIESEL ENGINES!!!!
4) Oh shit moment happens, finish the can off anyways.
5) Turn off engine as per instructions and wait 15min.
6) Attempted to turn on. Wouldn't start, but really healithly wants to turn over it just wont.


Break for 2 weeks.

Ordered oil and fuel filters. Decided to change fuel filters with the WIX as suggested by Duce and Guns.

1) Changed fuel filters, primary, secondary and final along with gaskets.
2) Bled fuel lines until fuel came out.
3) Crank over and nothing happens.
4) Using starter fluid the engine will turn over and run, but will die upon 1second of letting off starter fluid. It also makes the engine sound like it's going to explode and kill everyone.
5) Logic states fuel isn't going to the engine because it's apparent that it WANTS to turn start, turns over fine, it just one.


Testing, removed the 12pt screw on the hydraulic 6 cylinder pump. Upon kicking the power on (But not cranking it) fuel will squirt from that.

Cracked the fuel lines 11/16 on the hydrolic head, and right up at the top. No fuel will come out. Either with power on, or while trying to crank it.

Let me know if anyone wants any more videos and i'll get them up ASAP! You can assume that I am completely incompetent and barely know what a wrench is. Any help would be appreciated!

Unrelated, what is the part of the fuel injector pump that the throttle/accelerator linkage attaches too called? It's wired shut, and can be seen in my video, I'm about to take it apart next in troubleshooting despite it being safety wired shut. My assumption is that the linkage turns, but there is an internal govner or something that is gummed up and keeping the fuel from getting where it needs to go. Though....i'm unsure as the fuel makes it to that 12 point nut on the end of the hydraulic head does have fuel.
 

carhug12

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No more either! No more magic potions in the intake!
Problem is your super sticky engine stop lever, free it up with penetrating lubricant.
Thank you so much for the reply!!

Any suggested brand? Also, can I just squirt it in directly into the cover that I removed, or is there a suggested method?
 

carhug12

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carhug12. NDT is giving you some good advice. But may I also say, don't put anything down the intake. Especially stuff for a gas engine.
Thanks! I have certainly learned my lesson. Everyone seemed to agree that Seafoam was good. I didn't know that there were different kinds of seafoam.
 

carhug12

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WD-40 or the like. Spray it around in there and work the lever back and forth until it springs back super easy.
I will try this tomorrow and report back if it works or not!

What I THINK you told me was to use WD-40 in the "kill engine" valve area, unitl it moves nice and easy. After that reattach the cover, and try to start 'er up? Please someone correct me if I misunderstood! Thanks!
 

NDT

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I will try this tomorrow and report back if it works or not!

What I THINK you told me was to use WD-40 in the "kill engine" valve area, unitl it moves nice and easy. After that reattach the cover, and try to start 'er up? Please someone correct me if I misunderstood! Thanks!
Yes correct.
 

Floridianson

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Get the fuel control moving free first thing. Then remove the 12 point plug you pointed to first and the spring. Inside is the spring and valve and it has a slot in it and if you chose the correct blade you can spin it and with the in tank fuel pump working it should pop out. Clean it and the inside of any crud. Reset valve spring and tighten down the cap.
 

Tracer

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DSCF2518.JPGcarhug12, I do believe in fuel additives that lubricate the injection pump, (we have low Sulphur Diesel fuel now), clean the fuel system, and eliminate water that can cause slime and fuel system freeze ups. When you look into the fuel tank on my Deuce, all you can see is the shinny silver bottom of the fuel tank. A clean fuel system will also help your primary and secondary fuel filters last longer, and your truck will run better. Also, I run my Deuce on straight Diesel fuel, no reclaimed motor oil, cooking oil, or anything else. 2cents
 
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fleetmech

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Just a little more background for you OP:

The reason that can says 'not for Diesel', and the reason guys say not to put anything in the intake is because it can cause the engine to overspeed or 'run away', probably causing total engine failure, or at minimum a very scary event...

The reason is that Diesel type engines have no air throttling (throttle valve) and instead control their speed and power output by fuel flow. To put it simply, more fuel added means more engine speed. If you were to spray enough of something into the intake it could act as a fuel and the speed could climb very rapidly, possibly past the point of mechanical failure.

As Tracer stated above, there are additives that can be added to the fuel tank to accomplish different things, and there are reasons to use them.

For example Diesel fuel can support microbial growth generally called algae, and this nasty gunk can clog filters quick and so an algaecide would be used as part of a remedy.

Lubricity of fuel is a topic that shows up a lot, especially since the reduction of sulphur in fuels some time ago. The injection pump on most any Diesel is a precision high pressure pump that has some elements that are lubricated by the fuel flowing through them. While you will find many, many differing opinions on the matter of lubricity additives, many folks, myself included believe that some additional lubrication is beneficial. I generally use a bit of regular 2 stroke oil mixed in the fuel of all my mechanical diesels, as it seems to be very effective and is very affordable.

There are also cleaners and cetane boosters available, most claiming added lubricity as well. Howe's and Power Service are two well known examples of these additives. An occasional dose of cleaner might help keep the system tidy and the injector tips clean, but good clean fuel, working the engine at full temperature and minimal idling will accomplish a lot of that, plus its fun!

Straight Cetane boosters are IMO close to snake oil, and something that will provide you no benefit.
 

carhug12

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Yes correct.
One thing I had not mentioned before was that with the "engine stop" cover pulled off, I've pushed the arm manually all the way to the 7'oclock position, and tried to crank it and nothing has happened. It still "Wants" to turnover, but no fuel seems to be making it.
 

carhug12

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Get the fuel control moving free first thing. Then remove the 12 point plug you pointed to first and the spring. Inside is the spring and valve and it has a slot in it and if you chose the correct blade you can spin it and with the in tank fuel pump working it should pop out. Clean it and the inside of any crud. Reset valve spring and tighten down the cap.
Alright, so once fuel is up to that point, remove the 12point plug and small spring (looks like a short J-frame trigger return spring)
1) Get a blade? What kind of blade, like a knife or screw driver head?
2) I'm assuming we insert the blade into the hole where the 12point and small spring came out?
3a) What I believe you're stating, is to turn on the duce, while poking/spining something inside that hole, a spring and value will come out of that hole? Then clean that?
3b) What you are talking about is clean the spring that was just removed?
4) replace everything.

Currently, fuel will come out of that hole if I remove that 12 point plug and the duce is on.
 
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carhug12

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Just a little more background for you OP:

The reason that can says 'not for Diesel', and the reason guys say not to put anything in the intake is because it can cause the engine to overspeed or 'run away', probably causing total engine failure, or at minimum a very scary event...

The reason is that Diesel type engines have no air throttling (throttle valve) and instead control their speed and power output by fuel flow. To put it simply, more fuel added means more engine speed. If you were to spray enough of something into the intake it could act as a fuel and the speed could climb very rapidly, possibly past the point of mechanical failure.

As Tracer stated above, there are additives that can be added to the fuel tank to accomplish different things, and there are reasons to use them.

For example Diesel fuel can support microbial growth generally called algae, and this nasty gunk can clog filters quick and so an algaecide would be used as part of a remedy.

Lubricity of fuel is a topic that shows up a lot, especially since the reduction of sulphur in fuels some time ago. The injection pump on most any Diesel is a precision high pressure pump that has some elements that are lubricated by the fuel flowing through them. While you will find many, many differing opinions on the matter of lubricity additives, many folks, myself included believe that some additional lubrication is beneficial. I generally use a bit of regular 2 stroke oil mixed in the fuel of all my mechanical diesels, as it seems to be very effective and is very affordable.

There are also cleaners and cetane boosters available, most claiming added lubricity as well. Howe's and Power Service are two well known examples of these additives. An occasional dose of cleaner might help keep the system tidy and the injector tips clean, but good clean fuel, working the engine at full temperature and minimal idling will accomplish a lot of that, plus its fun!

Straight Cetane boosters are IMO close to snake oil, and something that will provide you no benefit.

Ohkay! That is starting to make sense. Are all diesel engines this way? The speed/rpms of a diesel engine are controled by how much air is put into it, not how much fuel, and that the fuel is constant?

I saw a Governor, and it was an air regulator, and mounts above the air filter box. Which makes sense to me. Thank you for the background!
 

fleetmech

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Ohkay! That is starting to make sense. Are all diesel engines this way? The speed/rpms of a diesel engine are controled by how much air is put into it, not how much fuel, and that the fuel is constant?

I saw a Governor, and it was an air regulator, and mounts above the air filter box. Which makes sense to me. Thank you for the background!
Other way around, the airflow is fully open and limited purely by how much can fit through the intake piping and passages. The quantity of fuel injected and the time at which it is injected is controlled by the fuel injection system. All diesel engines operate in this manor, though the systems involved can vary quite bit. On these engines, it may be useful (I hope!) to compare the fuel injection pump to a distributor on an old gasoline car. It has a rotary piece inside that spins just like a distributor rotor, except instead of making electrical contacts, there are passages that line up to allow pressurized fuel through. inside are also means of adjusting the injection timing, and quantity of fuel. Unlike a gas engine that regulates its fuel air mix in fairly exact proportion, a diesel flows unregulated air and just changes the fuel.

The air governor you mention is actually for the trucks compressed air system. While its methods are quite different you can think of it like the pressure switch on a shop air compressor or even a well pump. It engages the compressor when the air system is low or empty, then shuts it off once full. note that compressor will always be spinning, the shutoff is accomplished by unloading the valves in the compressor itself.
 

Floridianson

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Carhug. Remove the 12 point cap plug. Grab the spring and do not loose it. Then with a flat blade screw driver just a little smaller than the port so you do not damage the plug threads you can slowly rotate the screw driver till it locks in on the valve. It will twist around as it is in a round bore but it is square. It has point taper on the other end that seals the fuel. It is called the delivery valve. As said if it does not want to come out you can try and just turn on the master switch and that starts the in tank fuel pump running. Just do not loose the valve. Maybe have someone else turn on master switch and you get ready to catch the valve if it shoots out. The slot is bigger than a quarter. Pic with spring inside valve and it just pulls out or get it out. So your going to clean the valve the bore and the seat where the valve seats just do not scratch the seat area of the valve with anything that could cause the valve tip not to seat.
 

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carhug12

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Carhug. Remove the 12 point cap plug. Grab the spring and do not loose it. Then with a flat blade screw driver just a little smaller than the port so you do not damage the plug threads you can slowly rotate the screw driver till it locks in on the valve. It will twist around as it is in a round bore but it is square. It has point taper on the other end that seals the fuel. It is called the delivery valve. As said if it does not want to come out you can try and just turn on the master switch and that starts the in tank fuel pump running. Just do not loose the valve. Maybe have someone else turn on master switch and you get ready to catch the valve if it shoots out. The slot is bigger than a quarter. Pic with spring inside valve and it just pulls out or get it out. So your going to clean the valve the bore and the seat where the valve seats just do not scratch the seat area of the valve with anything that could cause the valve tip not to seat.

Gottcha. Pull all those out, give them a good cleanin if need be, WD-40 the arm until it moves freely, reassemble everything and fire her up?

Thanks for he help!
 

carhug12

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Still no fuel to the engine. Above is the current situation.

Also, if I manually press the engine stop forward (with the cover off) it will not start. The plunger behind the 12 point is clean and moves freely. If the duce is on there is a VERY healthy flow of fuel to it. Still no file making it to the actual engine I think.

Thanks for all your tips and advise! Any other suggestions?
 
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fleetmech

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Just so that everything is clear, have you bled the high pressure lines up at the injectors on top of the engine? You have fuel getting to the pump, if you can confirm there is nothing getting to the injectors, then either something in the pump internally is holding the fuel control off or something has happened to the high pressure pumping element. I myself am fairly new to this specific pump, but I understand there is a 'button' on the bottom of the pump plunger that can fail/ come off and not allow the pump to travel its full stroke and build pressure.

Can you try to bleed the injectors, and perhaps take a quick video showing us what if anything flows from the high pressure lines? It won't generally be a big flow, just spurts pushing past the loosened nuts. These systems seem to be fairly good at self bleeding of air, but I would say to cover all the bases before diving deeper into the pump.

With the lines closed up and everything seemingly ready are you getting any smoke from the stack while cranking, even just a thin white puff or haze?
 
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Floridianson

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The Deuce is set up so as you never need to bleed the injectors. If the fuel control unit assembly is now working free and with the shut down cover off it should be in the 7 o'clock position. This is where it needs to be for the engine to start. When we check for free movement of the fuel control unit assembly as said with cover off it will be around 7 o'clock if not stuck in the shut down position 4 o'clock. That can happen and is better than wide open throttle. With our finger we can move it towards the firewall or about the 4 o'clock position. When we let it go it will snap back to the 7 o'clock position. When all is right before we start it as said it will be at full throttle but if all is right the governor will reduce the rpm to the idle . You never want to try and start a truck with the fuel control unit assembly stuck in the 7 o'clock position. You will be sorry. As for button yep that has been the Deuce's down fall.
 
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