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Retrofit direct injection on a 465?

TexAndy

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Yes, another crazy idea, I realize.

But could it be done? What all would you have to do?

Drill and tap ports for new injectors, find suitable injectors, get a new electronic IP for the injectors...

Assume money was no object. What would be the result of such a project? What kind of performance increase could you expect?

Or is there some other limiting factor of the multifuel engines that would make such a retrofit pointless? If so, what else would have to be done in addition to the DI mod to make full use of it?

iow... teach me about direct injection, please?
 

Burgerboy13

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IMO modernizing the multi is just not worth it. The main limiting factor would be simply of its age. It was never designed to be a high output engine. If you want a modern engine just use a cummins 5.9. They will run on WVO ( If heated properly), WMO, ATF; just takes some filtering. Don't mean to rain on your parade just my 2cents
 

Jake0147

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Agreed. You're talking about building an engine that was originally designed as a gas engine, was already "stretched" into a mildly powerful but reliable diesel engine, and was stretched again to get the multi-fuel ability.

What kind of direct injection are you talking about? Hydraulic or common rail? Either way, I'm thinking you'd be looking at a set of cylinder heads, there's not a lot to work with. Then you've got to figure you need 30X or better camshaft revolution sensing to make it work at a minimum, probably a crankshaft sensor, neother of which have a provision to trigger a sensor. When you get that, you're moving on to a high pressure pump (fuel or oil) that has nowhere to go. You've got to get the pump, a regulator, a pressure sensor all wired in, and you have to plumb it somewhere... There are no passages in the head, nor was the head designed in such a way that you could have a "straight shot" to have passages made into them. Now you're out of the "slobbering" injectors anyhow, which is one of the key differences in the combustion process, but you've still got the "goofy" cup in the piston that's designed to burn liquid fuel off of the side. It won't have that any more, it'll be burning suspended atomized fuel, for which the pistion shape is just not a good one. Incidentally, therein lies the biggest problem with turning up a julti-fuel to modern standards. The fuel burns from a liquid form, not atomized. Thus the process heats the piston disproportionately, and the timing of the peak pressure becomes environmentally variable and too far removed from the mechanically timed injection event (either mechanically timed by a mechanical injector, or mechanically timed by a sensor sensing mechanical timing and passing that information along to the ECU), thus the control is very imprecise. Injection timing means squat. Timing of the peak pressure in the cylinder is what you're after to make downward force on the piston, and therefore horsepower. So now you're into that can of worms where the lower end is needing modifications anyhow.
And the electronics... Speaking of cans of worms... Robbing the electronics is not difficult, even if you had to build your own harnesses. (I said not difficult, I did NOT say not time consuming... The only thing that makes it difficult is if you try to take shortcuts). You do run into a problem though. You've now got a system that does NOT have the same characteristics as the donor, so you can't set it up and get it running right based on the silver bullet method. You've got to have a scanner that can communicate with it. And that does not mean a code reader from the Auto Zoo... Aftermarket scanners can read most of what's availavle, but they're VERY, VERY limited. They break down the silver bullet theory, but again, that's already out the window. You really need a dealer level of software to set this up. (You'll be surprised, it's not as much as you think... That's only a small issue...). Next, you need the module to be willing to "wake up" and go too work. That's going to mean that you need a lot of other modules on the network... You are going to find that you need modules to do things that the truck is not equipped with. Now you're into custom code... You can grab a "standardized" off the shelf product for some engines, not so much so for others. But it's still written with something in mind, and now your project is limited by that fact..
This list just goes on and on and on and on.... Really, an electronic diesel is a whole different animal unto it's self. They share the same concept of a crankshaft and pistons going up and down, but so does a gas engine, a weed wacker engine, your air compressor.... You're essentially starting from scratch.

My thoughts, if you absolutely need horsepower...
A more modern engine. The 6BT comes to mind, but there's lots of good ones to choose from.
Seek out the parts, and build the multi back into a straight diesel. It was used in marine and agricultural applications in that form, the parts are there, and from that point you can be a lot more comfortable with the "standard" modifications for a mechanical diesel engine, because at that point it IS a diesel engine, instead of what it is now, a "heavily modified and strangely tuned" diesel engine, that really, really looks like a diesel engine from the outside and makes you wonder why you can't get the torque and horsepower that you'd expect to be able to get with a modern diesel engine. It was pretty powerful in it's day. Remember that over the road truck tractors were carrying full loads with gasoline powered engines rated at about a hundred and fifty horsepower. You had to shift them a lot, but you could still find people willing to learn a skill and shift them well. It's just how stuff was built in that time. It had what it had, and could deliver it all day, every day. Today's philosiphy is different. You can get stupid horsepower out of less engine, but intermittant use only because the engine can't take it. So when you pull out and pass, you don't have to be troubled and inconvenienced by noticing your automatic transmission backshifting it's self while you do absolutely nothing but smash the stupid pedal down. (OK, starting on a tangent/rant, I'm done...)

Personally, I don't think the rest of the truck was built for the horsepower available in modern standards either. "Back in the day" these trucks were well powered when compared to regular commercial stuff, but there was a difference. Over the road drivers had a couple of transmissions and enough gear combinations to where they could spend twenty minutes and never grind the same gear twice. Smaller in town delivery trucks has less gears, but many of them were still unsynchronized. The Deuce wasn't exactly a marvel at that time, but it was nice. Anyhow, if I needed more then I think I'd be less inclined to go after the engine, and leave it like it is, so you can stay right after it for as long as you like. I think I'd be more inclined to go after the transmission and/or transfer case, and get enough useable gears that the engine speed and road speed could be matched, so that horsepower the engine is capable of can actually make it to the road.
 

TexAndy

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As far as a crankshaft sensor, I assume it would be pretty much just about the same thing they use for encoders on servos or steppers with closed loop modification: just a wheel with infra red graduations painted on it for an IR eye to count. I've done a little bit of home made cnc stuff, so I get that part. And they make them pretty discriminating as far as the number of lines goes, so I wouldn't think resolution on that side of the system would be the problem, would it?

However, you're right... I don't know how to program PLCs (or anything else), so it would make that part of it unfeasible for me to do.

Thanks for the explanation, tho.
 

TexAndy

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Direct injection? Serious? It's already direct injection. If it were indirect injection it would have precups in the heads and require glowplugs to start.

Right, someone mentioned that on another board...

The electronically controlled injection part is what I'm wondering about, now.
 

doghead

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Assume money was no object.
Send your truck and $5000 to me, I'll convert it to Direct Injection while you wait! Performance will be very similar to before you pay me.fat lady sings


Seriously, you need a goal, before you can ask a question, and get a resonable answer. If you think modern electronics are more reliable than mechanical pump systems, it ain't so. Performance? Unless you are measuring emmissions with computers, it ain't worth it either. So, what were you after?
 
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PsycoBob

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Personally, I think electronics on a multifuel should stay out of critical engine functions. It's nice to know that the engine's doing for things like turning the fuel up, but just about any HP upgrades other than that tend to trash reliabilty, cold-starting, and the whole 'multifuel' bit. The only real solution to more HP than a well-built, turned-up LDT/S is a different engine.

Temp sensors to get more data on intake/exhaust under different loads/fuel/rpm/air-temp? Sure, sounds useful for the community. Be nice to nail down a few questions like "Does one cyl really run hotter/cooler than the others?" "Does the coolant crossover on the intake really help with cold-weather operation, and does it really bork any attempt to fit an intercooler on a turbo model?"



For a crank position sensor, most modern systems use a hall-effect sensor, looking at a toothed wheel, sometimes missing one tooth to tell the sensor a complete revolution has occurred. Biased hall-effect sensors use a tiny magnet, and sense the distortion in that magnetic field caused by ferrous metals. Solid-state, and no practical limit on cycle life. Stick on near the flywheel's teeth, and you get nice precise data- a second sensor can be used to look for another mark to 'zero' the position sensor.
 

tm america

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To me electronics are worth less on an offroad vehicle.. Get em wet they die.Get em hot they die.Bounch em around they die....when they work right they are great.But is a a common rail cummins better than one with a 7100 pump?i doupt it,
Sure you can make power adjustments with a reprogram but one bad sensor and you're not running .if you have a mechanical set up it takes a little more to boost power but they are way more reliable in the end . especially if it's gonna be bounced around in a mud hole or beat on in the dessert.....The main thing you should be looking to do with any engine mod is fixing the weak link or getting rid of the limiting factor. as far as i know the injection system is niether on a multifuel. how ever the multi does have weak rods, weak head gaskets .restrictive-ineffecient turbos and a lack of inner cooler.also the oil filters drain back causing an lack of oil pressure as start up...i would focus on fixing thses areas first .......Then i would just stick an lds incection system on there problem solved
 

tm america

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This is one of the funniest threads i've seen.Next thread in the deuce mod section will be how to turn a deuce into a 6x6 or how do i turn my ldt465 1c into a multifuel?:driver:
 
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