Starter bellhousing clearance

[79Vette]

I have a m1009 with a sm465 that keeps eating pilot bushings, and I think the bellhousing might be slightly bent and contributing to the problem. I would like to replace with a new bellhousing but am having a hard time finding the right one.

I currently have GM 6263756 which has the right size opening for my 28MT starter. I bought a new "6.2 diesel" bellhousing from Novak but the starter hole is way too small. Their suggestion is to use a 6.5 diesel starter without a nosecone, but I'm not sure where to find one of those in a 24v version.

Those if you with manual transmissions, what bellhousing/starter combo are you using? Neither Advanced Adapters nor Novak seems to offer the correct bellhousing and I prefer not to go used, since that's how I got my current problems. Is there such a thing as a 24v starter without a nosecone that will fit the small bellhousing hole?

 

[Barrman]

The 465 came from the factory with the 6.2 and the 27MT starter. Does the bell housing go over the located pins ok? If so since those pins don’t have very much clearance, how about your input shaft bearing?

 

[Barrman]

Oh, I don’t have a 465 behind a 6.2. I do have a NV4500 behind one. But, your 465 won’t bolt to that.

 

[79Vette]

Yep, the 465 came from the factory paired with the 465. My 6263756 bellhousing is (one of) the right one, but it's bent and I can seem to find anyone who makes a replacement bellhousing for the 6.2

So it's either gamble on another used bellhousing which might also be bent, or see if there's a work around to get a starter with a smaller or no nosecone i think. Was just curious if anyone else has dealt with this before and had any suggestions

 

[Barrman]

Put a light layer of grease on the starter and put into position. Then see where it is contacting the bell housing by what transfers. Lightly grinding the greasy spot might get you the clearance you need.

However, the bent part of your description has me wondering if that is causing the pilot bearing destruction.

 

[79Vette]

Put a light layer of grease on the starter and put into position. Then see where it is contacting the bell housing by what transfers. Lightly grinding the greasy spot might get you the clearance you need.

However, the bent part of your description has me wondering if that is causing the pilot bearing destruction.

Yeah, my current bellhousing is bad. It fits over the starter just fine and I've run it for awhile, but I need to replace it with one that is not bent. I'm getting like 10k miles out of the pilot bushing before it's so torn up I start having problems shifting.

As far as I can tell nobody makes the diesel bellhousing new, so I need to buy a regular small block Chevy bellhousing for a 168 tooth flywheel and try to cut it to fit, or roll the dice on a other used one...

 

[87cr250r]

What grease are you using in the pilot bushing? Lithium grease are terrible for that application. A polyurea grease will do you better. The only polyurea grease I have found in the auto supply stores is Lucas X-Tra Heavy Duty (green). You should be using this grease everywhere else on your truck. If you purchase from industrial supply houses there are a few other options. For a bushing, Mobile Polyrex EP2 or Chevron Black Pearl are good options.

 

[79Vette]

What grease are you using in the pilot bushing? Lithium grease are terrible for that application. A polyurea grease will do you better. The only polyurea grease I have found in the auto supply stores is Lucas X-Tra Heavy Duty (green). You should be using this grease everywhere else on your truck. If you purchase from industrial supply houses there are a few other options. For a bushing, Mobile Polyrex EP2 or Chevron Black Pearl are good options.

I was always told to use a 20 or 30 wt non detergent oil for olite bushings. They are designed to be self lubricating and grease supposedly plugs the pores in the material and defeats the self lubricating effect. Idk

 

[nyoffroad]

Have you tried using a pilot BEARING instead of the bushing? I just went down this road and had always used bushings and didn't even know about the bearings, got one at IIRC Auto Zone for about $25.
Is there any play on the tranny input shaft?
I've been sitting here pondering this and I'd be willing to bet that these bushings that you've been getting are from China and made cheap, plain brass or bronze could be cheaper to source and machine and would look like the part they are replacing but would not hold up! Years ago before installing an oil-lite bushing we would drop it in a pan with some hot 30W and let it sit for awhile to soak it up.

 

[79Vette]

Have you tried using a pilot BEARING instead of the bushing? I just went down this road and had always used bushings and didn't even know about the bearings, got one at IIRC Auto Zone for about $25.
Is there any play on the tranny input shaft?
I've been sitting here pondering this and I'd be willing to bet that these bushings that you've been getting are from China and made cheap, plain brass or bronze could be cheaper to source and machine and would look like the part they are replacing but would not hold up! Years ago before installing an oil-lite bushing we would drop it in a pan with some hot 30W and let it sit for awhile to soak it up.

No, I haven't tried a pilot bearing. I know the bell housing is bent because I can measure the circular run out of the crankshaft relative to the bellhousing pilot bore and it is not concentric. The flat face of the bell housing is also not parallel to the mounting face of the crank

I've been running the drivetrain in this configuration for years and it ate the first pilot bushing after 30,000 miles. I replaced the bushing last year but had to get the truck back on the road and couldn't wait for a new bell housing, and I've been running it for another 15,000 and the pilot bushing is making noise again.

If I had a pilot bearing it probably would have destroyed the input shaft of the transmission when it failed, which is part of an irreplaceable Ranger 2 speed gear splitter which is no longer in production. I absolutely cannot damage that shaft or I'll need a whole new transmission and drivetrain set up so I'm not going to be running a pilot bearing. The whole point of an old light bronze bushing is it is softer than the shaft material and will wear hopefully without damaging the shaft. Roller bearings are hardened steel which is easily as hard as the input shaft and probably quite a bit harder so when the bearing fails it takes the shaft with it

 

[nyoffroad]

" which is part of an irreplaceable Ranger 2 speed gear splitter which is no longer in production. " I have the same in front of an SM465. Pretty odd piece of hardware nowadays, mine was rebuilt by an old timer and I remember him telling most all the parts are from an SM465!
How is your shifted? Someone in the far past converted mine to an electric shift complete with micro cutout switches.

 

[79Vette]

" which is part of an irreplaceable Ranger 2 speed gear splitter which is no longer in production. " I have the same in front of an SM465. Pretty odd piece of hardware nowadays, mine was rebuilt by an old timer and I remember him telling most all the parts are from an SM465!
How is your shifted? Someone in the far past converted mine to an electric shift complete with micro cutout switches.

Mine is a normal manual shift. I cut a hole in the floor and there is a separate shifter next to the SM465, and I have a twin stick shifter on my np205. So there's a lot of levers in the cab haha.

I thought the front bearing looked like an SM465. I think the front shaft seal is similar too.

I called advanced adapters a year or so ago and offered to buy a production run of Ranger III units (the newest aluminum case version), and also tried to buy the IP for the Ranger (drawings, vendor lists, any assembly or process documents) with the intent of doing small production run myself. Unfortunately they were not interested in selling the design nor doing a custom production run, so it seems like there is really no way to get parts for these anymore for anything not off the shelf/used in another product.

Bearings and seals are fine, maybe the input shaft is an SM465 shaft? I'm not sure. Syncros and the shift collar look like SM465 parts but I didn't measure them when I had my ranger apart so no way to be sure. But the main shaft and countershaft are definitely custom and I don't see how you could get a 0.73:1 ratio using SM465 gears so I assume all the gears are custom.

Mine makes a horrifically loud howling noise on overdrive, and I have headsets and an intercom I use on the highway. If I could get gears I think that would solve the problem but there doesn't seem to be any solution, sadly...

Someday I'd like to get a parts Ranger with the under drive gear ratio and try to rebuild it, and do a custom rear plate to mate to an NV4500.

 

[nyoffroad]

Thanks for the info, I got to thinking about your bellhousing problem and thought why not have in milled down? Know anybody that has a milling machine? I'm not a machinist but even I could do it if it would fit on my machine (it won't) I'd look around for a small one or two man shop and offer cash for him to true it up.

 

[87cr250r]

If you want the material least likely to damage the shaft, may I introduce you to the graphite metalizing corporation?

Graphalloy - The Solution for Tough Bearing Problems

Graphalloy simple solutions for tough bearing problems. GRAPHALLOY, graphite/metal alloy, is a unique self-lubricating carbon, graphite bushing and bearing material that offers superior performance in hundreds of mechanical and electrical applications.

www.graphalloy.com

 

[79Vette]

Thanks for the info, I got to thinking about your bellhousing problem and thought why not have in milled down? Know anybody that has a milling machine? I'm not a machinist but even I could do it if it would fit on my machine (it won't) I'd look around for a small one or two man shop and offer cash for him to true it up.

I have a full shop. 3 and 5 axis CNC mills, a mill-turn, a live tool lathe, some manual lathes and a couple large Bridgeports

Facing the bellhousing will make it too short, and it will require shims to obtain the correct block to transmission face spacing. Re-boring the input bearing register is possible but would be very tricky. Line boring on the engine could be best, but I don't have the tools for it and I imagine you'd need to take the crankshaft out of the engine to get it set up. To do it in a mill you would have to measure and record the offset distance and vector using a dial indicator with the bellhousing mounted on the engine, and somehow reproduce that offset when you set it up on a mill to recut it. I'm a decent machinist and there's a chance I might just make it worse. Plus then you have an oversized bearing bore that would require a centering ring to get it down to the right size.

I was really hoping someone would make a replacement for the 6.2 but it doesn't seem like thats the case unfortunately. Time is money, and for the amount of time it would take me to rework this bellhousing I could probably buy 3-4 used ones and hope one of them works. Folks here have said they don't see many bent bellhousings, so maybe I have a chance of getting lucky... Or I could go to an aftermarket fancy starter without a nose cone and use an SBC/BBC bellhousing...

 

[nyoffroad]

What exactly is the difference between the gas and diesel bell housing? Is it just starter clearance? If so can you use a Hi-torque mini starter? I've had pretty good luck with some of them in the past.
Next idea, not ideal but since you know how far off the housing can it be shimmed or welded and then milled to size?
I've never measured the clearance but IIRC the pilot hole for the bushing is deeper than the bushing is, that won't give you a couple thou to play with?