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Stumped

GM72K10

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Recently bought a rusted 50K M1028 plow truck that some one else was throwing money at and finally gave up on. (Only bought it bacause of the Meyers plow set up) The previous owner had fried the starter and said that was why it wouldn't run. Now has a good starter. He also had put a new injector pump in it (that wasn't timed but is now), new fuel pump, and new transmission. The glow plug system is original with a good card and new starter relay, the injector pump works, engine turns over, but won't start. Tried the starter fluid routine with out the card but no luck. It has AC 13G glow plugs that are not swollen but used. Relay is good. I have had about 10 CUCVs and only 1 of them was ever bought in running condition and I managed to get them all running but boy this one has got me. It just seems like its something stupid that I'm staring at but can't see. Any help or ideas would be appreciated. thanks
 

maybefixit

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Hm. Does the engine breathe right? If it won't run with starter fluid then I'd wonder about compression and cam timing (did someone put a chain on it wrong, or did it jump time). It sounds like the past owner replaced a lot of parts, and if the starter was fried to begin with, then the starter might have been worn out by trying to crank it.
Do you have access to a compression tester for diesel / does the engine sound healthy when you crank it?
 

GM72K10

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Engine sounds healthy when it turns over, only ever tried to "kick" the very first time I tried it about a month ago. He definitely fried the started by cranking and cranking it. Can they "jump time"? and btw how do you tell if the glow plugs are still any good other than swelling?
thanks
 

stampy

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Is the exhaust manifold plugged up? Are you using the stock fuel filter? I changed my fuel filter to a spin on so I could prefill it, the square filters are terrible and take forever to fill after you change them. Have you tried spraying auto trans fluid in the intake(not a great idea but will work if you are having a fuel delivery problem)
 
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maybefixit

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Well, I would want to mention that I a.)don't yet own one of these and b.)haven't worked on many GM diesels. So as much as I'd like to help, use lotsa common sense with any of the stuff I point ya toward. It might be the answer, or might be a wild goose chase.

Glow plugs: you can check resistance in the plug with an ohm meter, a bad one should be open (like a blown fuse). I think you can also check voltage drop at each glow plug, seems like I remember someone mentioning that in another thread. Other than that, I don't know of a reliable way to check them, without risk of damaging them. I'm sure there would be a way to connect them to a battery and see if they get hot, but 12v directly to them would be bad (I want to say they are built to operate in a 2-4 volt range each, with all 8 sharing the 24v bus).

Cams:
If your cam had 'skipped' due to a slack chain, it would throw the cam timing back (I guess) around 2-5 degrees, which might be enough to keep it from running.
Being a diesel, if you have good breathing, cam timing and compression, I think it should run with a shot of ether.
If it were a gas engine, we'd need to add a good ignition system to that to make the same statement. Diesel means we can forget about strong spark, correct ignition timing, advance, plug wire connection order, etc.

So since your engine is turning over, and does not sound like it lacks compression, then I'm wondering if something is keeping it from breathing. Is the engine giving 'puffs' out the tailpipe while cranking, and breathing in through the intake while cranking?
I suppose if the unit got into a muddy river, stalled, was pulled out, and the muffler/exhaust is full of mud then you might just have a fix there by cleaning it out.
That seems to be supported a little due to the 'kick' at first, then nothing. If the exhaust or intake are plugged, then the cylinders are full of burnt air/fuel and won't light off again. I'd try having someone crank it while I went to the back to see if air comes out the tailpipe. You ought to feel puffs on the back of your hand at least. Of course, you could also drop the exhaust at the y pipe under the engine and see if it runs with the whole system disconnected. Maybe he backed into something and bent the exhaust closed, but it was able to run enough to get home (but not start again).

In general terms, cams can jump time (usually lagging) due to wear in the gear/chain/belt system driving the cam from the crank. Gear driven cams (lawn mowers, air cooled VW engines) jumping time usually means a broken tooth in the system. Chain driven cams (your case) would be due to a broken tooth, weak chain, etc. Belt is usually a lucky break, giving warning before the belt snaps. Most timing belts just fail, and it seems like I hear more about the cam drive system failing rather than 'jumping time'. On an interference engine, that means valves kiss pistons goodbye.

I'm assuming that your diesel's cam drive looks a whole lot like a standard gas V-6/V-8 system (different actual parts of course). Small sprocket on the crank, larger sprocket on the cam, and a very short chain (enough of a loop to allow the two sprockets to not collide, but not much more) connecting them together. All of this is under an oval shaped cover behind the water pump on the front of the block. A friend of mine and I replaced one of these sets on his Dodge 3.9L V-6 (which is basically a Dodge 318 with two cylinders cut off). There are curved metal 'tensioners' that the chain rubs against, which keep the chain from flapping around in service. After replacement of the cam sprockets, tensioners and chain, his engine had a noticeable improvement in power (more like restoration of factory power). Slack in the chain will allow the cam timing to drift farther after-top-dead-center, and since his distributor was locked to the cam, the ignition base timing was lagging time as well. The new chain brought both back to factory specs, but his engine had over 150k miles on it, so his old chain was quite worn.

Checking the cam timing should be possible by pulling the valve cover(s) and seeing when the valves open / close as the engine is rotated by hand (with the glow plugs all removed). There should be a spec somewhere saying what the timing and the duration should be for the cams (see when the rocker arms move relative to the crank position in degrees).
Of course, pulling the water pump and cam cover will tell the story right away but I'd rather not suggest jumping right to that.

If you have another (running) GM Diesel engine of the same spec as the non-runner. you could pull the left valve cover on both and see if the #1 rocker arms start moving at the same crank degree point on both motors.

First I think I'd look for obstructions in the intake/exhaust to make sure it's getting air through it. I would not rotate a diesel by hand unless I was sure it could not start (glow plugs or injectors pulled to prevent compression), plus I think it may be unrealistic for a person to be able to rotate a diesel by hand without a compression release of some kind.

Hope you find the problem!
 

85-m1028

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I second the glow plug suggestion!! the fact that kicked the first time is an indication the plugs were almost gone..

use and ohm meter on the flat tang and one of the hex sides.. should get some resistance through it..
 

NPD732

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Check the pink wire going to the injection pump. It should read 12v with the ignition switch on. If you have 12v, unplug it and plug it back in with the ignition on. You should hear a soft click. If it doesnt click, the fuel cut-off solenoid is bad or you have a 24v one from a humvee and it will need to be swapped out. Check for air in the injector lines. Crack them open at the injector and make sure you are getting fuel.
 

acmunro

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Gerry,
A quick check I do when having problems with a 6.2 is look at the Injector pump return check valve. You didn't say what year it is, you did say it had a new IP So this may be a waste of time, but it only takes 5 min. 1985 and older 6.2 s have a retainer that breaks down and plugs the return check valve. Remove the rubber line, and remove the steel check valve itself. It has a clear check ball in it that is spring loaded make sure it is not stuck or pluged up with debris. You should be a able to blow through it. If the fuel return system is pluged it advances the injection timing and the truck will not run. Try starting it with check valve removed. Caution fuel will leak from opening. To get one back home once I installed a brass 1/8" NPT barbed fitting into the IP with lots of teflon tape (not the right thread) to replace the check valve and a small fuel filter to keep the debris out of the fuel tank and it ran OK.

The other thing along the same line is air in the fuel system. You said rusty, could it have a pinhole in a fuel system somewhere ? I look for air bubbles when the IP check valve is removed. If no air bubbles that rules everything out behind the IP.

Just a couple of thoughts. Good Luck and let us know what the remedy is.
Al
 
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GM72K10

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Its an 85. will try the check valve next Al, thanks. thanks for all the suggestions, have done most of what's been suggested other than a compression test, I think I'll try new glow plugs next too.. thanks again.
 
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GM72K10

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While I am waiting for a set of new glow plugs, I've noticed that the new IP on the truck is a 23500416 (for the HMMV). Would that make any difference in it not starting?
thanks
 

Recovry4x4

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While I am waiting for a set of new glow plugs, I've noticed that the new IP on the truck is a 23500416 (for the HMMV). Would that make any difference in it not starting?
thanks
That could have alot to do with it if the solenoids weren't changed to 12V, Someone else suggested this but unplug the pink wire from the IP, turn the ignition on and go back and touch that pink wire to the terminal. You should hear and feel a distinct clunk or click.
 

trkosaur

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i didn't see anything about this so far, but air in the fuel line is a common problem and makes starting these things seem impossible. one easy way to tell, is when the engine is cold, open the bleed valve on the filter housing and see if fuel comes out. if so, you have some pressure. if not, try backtracking to find leaks. you can bleed according to the manual which would overcome a small leak to help start. a very common problem, which i am sure you know about is the pressure sensor on the fuel housing. mine was leaking, causing pressure loss which wasn't allowing me to start the truck. once fixed, it fires right up every time. if the thing is cranking over, that's where i would start.
 

GM72K10

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Ok,
Thanks for the info, the pink wire disconnected and reconnected did not make the solenoid click. turns out the side of the cover reads 24V, so previous owned installed an ip from a HMMV with 24 Volt. Had a LD 23500400 ip from a civ c10, swapped the solenoids
and now they click. Put in new glow plugs, waiting for batteries to recharge. will try it again tomorrow. thanks
 

wallew

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If that does NOT solve the problem, consider adding an electric fuel pump, wired it into the fuse box to a connection that only works with the ignition on.

The fuel pump on the 6.2's seem to be a weak point. I've added an electric fuel pump to two CUCV's and it resolved problems exactly like you are describing.
 

stampy

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The square fuel filters are junk too. Go with a spin on from Napa or Go to Walmart in the boating section and pick up a filter kit for under 30$ filters are 7$ and you can prefill them (makes changes easy).
 
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