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[Desert Rat]

I figured it would only be a matter of time before our in-house turbo expert posted here. Folks, this man does turbos for a living. He definitely knows the ins and outs (sorry for the intended pun) of turbos. If there was anyone to ask Ken is THE man to ask. He'll stay with a job until it's done (36hours straight, in some cases even longer) and done correctly. I may be older, but he has much more experience in this field than I do. Examples of his work are all over my truck and none have hinted of failure. I just learned about heat and turbos from his post above. See, you can even teach a teacher! Way to go Ken!

 

[Scoobie-Steve]

Turbos operate from heat. Not exaust gas flow. To get a turbo to spool up faster you have to add more heat, or decrease restance to rotation. This is usally done by using a smaller compressor wheel. Exaust gas expansion in the turbine housing is what forces the turbine to spin. If you decrease the clearence between the nozzle ring and the turbine blade you can also increase rpm's. As far as banks products go, I have a banks turbo on my 6.2. Although it work's ok and did increase my milage. The fit and finish was very poor. Bolt holes were drilled in the wrong place and fits were too tight to be assembled. I'm a machinist for a turbocharger company so i could tell very easily what a piece of crap they sold me.

I have heard people say this before and I have to completely disagree with the statement heat spools a turbo. Heat may help spool a turbo(from air expansion) but exhaust flow and velocity is what spools a turbo. Air flowing through the exhaust housing whether its hot or cold will spool a turbo. Cold compressed air blown into the ex housing will spool a turbo. You could have all the heat in the world on, around, and in that turbo buts if its not flowing through the ex housing its not gonna spool that turbo.

Exhaust gases will not be expanding inside a turbo, They are already expanded from the extreme heat provided from ignition. The turbo is not heating the air any more then what the engine already has. It is important to keep those gasses expanded and not let them cool before the turbo...

Now I can agree with the fact that once the air exiting the engine is heated by igntion it should be kept hot as possible until it exits the turbo. That air is expanded from the heat and if it cools before the turbo it will contract which will lower its velocity and the rpm of the turbo.

 

[ken]

Scoob. You are correct in that exaust gas moving will turn the turbine blades. But the gas movement alone will not provide enough power to build pressure on the compressor side. Thermodynamics provide the power to rotate the rotor at the speeds needed to give you a power increase. Thats why when you increase the fuel rate (add more heat) you end up with more boost. The exaust gas is still expanding well after it has passed into the turbine housing.

 

[DrFoster]

Just a thought - anyone ever tried a boost controller on the stock turbo? I haven't seen a compressor map of the turbo, but most applications can run +3 to5 psi safely.

Tuning the injectors would be a neat project too.

 

[Scoobie-Steve]

Just a thought - anyone ever tried a boost controller on the stock turbo? I haven't seen a compressor map of the turbo, but most applications can run +3 to5 psi safely.

Tuning the injectors would be a neat project too.

These turbos have no wastegate, and no boost control. They run them flat out but still only manage minimal boost. All i can say is the exhaust housing/wheel must be huge and lag has to be horrible. I think there is improvement to be had in the turbo department of a deuce. In spring I am gonna play with a few different turbo setups, much smaller ex housing with wastegate control. Also like to play with an air to water intercooler setup.

Just curious what size Ex inlet flange the deuce uses? T3, T4?

 

[DrFoster]

LMK if you need a hand in the development area. I'd be glad to provide the donor deuce or 5'er. I've got a ton of turbo parts laying around from my work on my wife's viper, my friends turbo Porsche 996, my SRT-4 and access to his shop (welding/fab and body/mechanical). We've been "turboing" together since highschool.

I've been on this forum reading and watching for a while, but waited with registering or posting until I got my own MV...

From the look of things that I see through pics of the deuce, it shouldn't be hard to fab up everything and use a mix of hard and soft pipes to plumb everything.

Parts list could be very simple - Hand welded downpipe, new turbo, intercooler, boost controller, wastegate, maybe a silent blow-off valve to keep from stalling the compressor from surge, mix of hard and soft pipes... probably less than $2500.00 in all for cooler intake temps, more power, and longer engine life...

I'll look into it a little more and let you guys know what I come up with. First, I need to find a compressor map for the stock turbo.

 

[DrFoster]

Anyone have level 3 TM's for the MF engine on cd?

 

[wallew]

DrFoster,
I live in Denver and have just been given the OK to buy my deuce. Once I've found the 'right one' for me, we gotta get together. RandyLBarnes is also a member who lives here in Denver. Perhaps we could have ourselves a 'convoy' one day.

Drop me an email. I'd love to discuss possibilites of modifying the turbo on the multifuel deuce. jim

 

[DrFoster]

I will do that. Glad to see the board is back up. My deuce willl be here shortly, and then we can get to work. From what I can find, the turbo is only a 4psi unit. That makes sense, seeing that there is no wastegate or intercooler, the charge is going to be very hot! I'll keep doing my homework and put something together. There is no reason once I get my hands on the exhaust manifold that a new turbo and pipes can be mounted.

 

[rdixiemiller]

Which TM's are you looking for? I have almost all of them on CD.

 

[Wick246]

What kind of gains do you expect to see from the addition of the intercooler and wastegate?

 

[Trango]

Make me part of that convoy.

All of this intercooler talk makes me want to put one on my junk... 4 PSI shouldn't be that hot?

Time to get a boost gauge on the new turbo on my 3208.

 

[bomar76]

Screw it, I'm outta here

 

[red devils dude]

Overlooking the fact the multifuels have HEATED intake manifolds.

help's it start if you have a coolet heater

 

[wallew]

EVERY TIME I open a thread here and start reading what you folks post, I learn so much.

I didn't know the intake manifold was heated. Is there a specific reason for this? It seems counter productive to heat the intake.

But hey, what I don't know (just about deuces) could fill a LIBRARY full of books!

Trango, YOU GOT. If ANYONE else is here in Colorado or close by, let me know. I'll try and start working on the logistics of it. Where, when, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd be HAPPY to host an MV party here at my house in South Denver (I-225 & I-25 east off of Hampden exit ).

Chicken, steaks, fish or whatever you guys want to eat. Grilled, fried, broiled or baked... I'm easy and the wife has been to a few culinary classes.

 

[red devils dude]

the air intake manifold is also the water outlet manifold if you look at one you'll know what I mean.

 

[bomar76]

screw it, I'm outta here

 

[wallew]

RDD & Bomar,
Thanks for the insight. Given I live in Denver, Co having a vehicle that will 'start/run well in cold weather' IS a plus in my mind.

This just keeps gettin better and better and better...

Thx guys! jim

 

[Scoobie-Steve]

Overlooking the fact the multifuels have HEATED intake manifolds.

As do 99% of all cars on the road today, even the turbocharged ones with intercoolers have heated intakes/TB. Air passing through a large intake runner that is a few inches long does very little to warm it. Now air passing through very fine cooling fins with many square feet of surface area does much to cool it. I would say at the very most the intake mani might warm the air a few degrees, it is common to pull hundreds of degrees out with an intercooler.

I doubt at 4-12psi there is any need for an intercooler on a deuce. But with a properly sized turbo making 20psi or more an intercooler will be needed. Remember every degree you can cool the intake is a degree cooler the EGTs will be. Cooler air is also more dense which in turn makes more power.

Adding a wastegate to the stock turbo will do nothing since all available air is already passing through the ex housing. My plan is to use a much smaller exhaust side. This will require a wastegate to keep boost levels reasonable. Not only will this give the engine much more low end power(faster spool) it will give more top end power too(more psi) Running a turbo at 4 psi is a joke, there is very little power being made from it. From what I read it was mostly used for emissions(black clouds) Todays trucks run compound turbos making 40-60 psi. That will make some power.

 

[wallew]

SO, I gotta ask the obvious questions.

The engine is 465 (thats cubic inches, right?). How big a turbo will it take without blowing the heads off this puppy? How much extra horsepower can be made?

Once you make all that extra HP, how much more stopping power will be needed?

Lots of ideas rattling around my empty head. Just curious what others have done and what the results have been. I'm not surprised that the current turbos are there more for emissions rather than for hp. Da military normally goes for the lowest common denominator when it comes to equipement. Not a complaint, it just means EVERYONE will be safe if that deuce can only put out 130 hp vs say 260 hp.

Now I'm not saying that you can OR should go for that much hp, but if you had more hp would you be getting better mpg if you used your right foot judiciously? Like I said, lots of ideas rattling around...