Just won an auction - M1088A1

[GeneralDisorder]

Wow. Have not encountered that. Can you disassemble and inspect/post pics of the adjuster? Would like to understand this failure.

Some of mine were pretty UGLY with rust and failed seals but it all functioned fine after cleaning, lubing and adjusting. Let me find that pic.......

 

[Ronmar]

Well the adjusters only cycle when the actuators cycle the brakes… That sounds weird… is the drum out of round? Take the wheel off, put on some lugs to hold the drum in proper position and spin it...

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Well the adjusters only cycle when the actuators cycle the brakes… That sounds weird… is the drum out of round? Take the wheel off, put on some lugs to hold the drum in proper position and spin it...

Perhaps the threads are messed up allowing it to slip out but not back in due to a non-axial force.

 

[Ronmar]

Perhaps the threads are messed up allowing it to slip out but not back in due to a non-axial force.

If I recall, the spring loaded teeth(with sawtooth serrated faces) are pushed out of the way and ride over the spiral sawtooth grooves on the plunger as the plungers travel outward(pushed by the wedges) because the two sets of sawtooth ridges meet angle to angle(like teeth on a ratchet). Then as the brakes retract and the plungers slide inward, the saw tooth grooves on the plunger and the adjuster teeth ridges engage vertical to vertical(again like teeth on a ratchet), which forces the plunger to rotate and add a small turn to the adjuster screw which is held by the manual adjusters on the end. So the plunger assembly gets a little longer with each brake application…

i seem to recall it being possible to install the teeth incorrectly so the angles and flats did not line up correctly and would not engage properly to cause the above action, disabeling the auto adjuster, so brakes would get looser and looser.

that and damaged manual adjusters would probably only show up after driving a bit though, and it does not sound as if it has been really driven since the brake job? So locking as you roll It out of the bay after work points me back to a out of round drum? You set the shoe spacing on the wide part of the drum and as it rotated to the narrow axis, it engages the shoes?

 

[dwlindsey]

Wow. Have not encountered that. Can you disassemble and inspect/post pics of the adjuster? Would like to understand this failure.

Some of mine were pretty UGLY with rust and failed seals but it all functioned fine after cleaning, lubing and adjusting. Let me find that pic.......

I put the adjuster in a vice and spun it with a pair of channel locks. There were a couple of tough to turn spots, which got better as I worked it. It's behaving well, I think. I'm not sure I trust it enough to re-install it.

I can't explain what happened, I'm sure I had it adjusted correctly yesterday and it was fully extended today.

 

[dwlindsey]

If I recall, the spring loaded teeth(with sawtooth serrated faces) are pushed out of the way and ride over the spiral s it It does not sound as if it has been really driven since the brake job? So locking as you roll It out of the bay after work points me back to a out of round drum? You set the shoe spacing on the wide part of the drum and as it rotated to the narrow axis, it engages the shoes?

Correct. I adjusted the brakes yesterday and tried to back it out of the garage today.

I set the shoe gap at the bottom of the drum, in the space where the inspection gap is. I had it set to 30 thousandths. I did not apply the service brakes and check it again. I'll do that next time.

This worked on the intermediate axle brake, but not on the rear one.

I really can't imagine that I turned the adjuster all the way out and then confirmed the 30 thousandths gap. I had the gap at 60 thousandths, 15 thousandths and then back to 30 . . . it felt right to me yesterday, but was really wrong today.

 

[dwlindsey]

Well the adjusters only cycle when the actuators cycle the brakes… That sounds weird… is the drum out of round? Take the wheel off, put on some lugs to hold the drum in proper position and spin it...

I did apply the brakes several times at the start of backing out. I agree it sounds weird.

The wheel is off, the front canister is off, the brake shoes are off.

When I get it back together, I'll try to check the drum and make sure it's round. I don't imagine that's the problem, but I'll try to check it.

 

[Ronmar]

I guess another possibility is that the spring brakes did not fully release with applied park air? Wonky actuator or wedge? The operation is the sum of all the parts…

 

[GeneralDisorder]

I guess another possibility is that the spring brakes did not fully release with applied park air? Wonky actuator or wedge? The operation is the sum of all the parts…

Those cans are going to apply something like 2,800 lbs of force to retract against the springs that probably push back with 1400 lbs (back of hand calculation based on can diaphragm and 120 psi tank air, and ~60 psi balancing the springs where you start to feel the parking brakes drag) so net of like 1400 lbs pulling on those wedges.... would have to be pretty hung up but maybe.

My wedges and adjusters were really rusted and the parking brake cans just muscled their way past it with ZERO complaints. So much power......

Although there's no linkage to allow the can to actually *pull* the wedge so I guess it could just get hung up and then drum brakes have this nasty property of being self-energizing....... hhhhmmm yeah possible.

 

[dwlindsey]

I guess another possibility is that the spring brakes did not fully release with applied park air? Wonky actuator or wedge? The operation is the sum of all the parts…

I thought of that as well, but when I caged the canister, the shoe was TIGHT to the drum and the actuator was extended a lot, not where I believe I put it yesterday. So I don't think it is a park air issue.

At this point, I have no idea what happened. I suppose it's possible that I somehow adjusted it wrong . . . but I checked and re-checked with a feeler gauge . . .

 

[dwlindsey]

I thought of that as well, but when I caged the canister, the shoe was TIGHT to the drum and the actuator was extended a lot, not where I believe I put it yesterday. So I don't think it is a park air issue.

At this point, I have no idea what happened. I suppose it's possible that I somehow adjusted it wrong . . . but I checked and re-checked with a feeler gauge . . .

I may have figured out what went wrong. It's what I call a "stupid user error". Me being the stupid user

I am learning . . . slowly.

Today I was putting the brake back together with the old adjuster, which seemed to be working fine. I had the drum on and was starting to adjust them to 30 thousandths and I noticed that the drum was not fully seated. I had two lug nuts on but they were not fully torqued down. I guess one side of the drum was 3/16 inch out.

I started over and fully torqued 3 lug nuts.

It's working better now.

My current theory is that two days ago I adjusted the brake with the drum not fully seated, then when I mounted the tire and torqued the lug nuts, the drum seated properly, the adjustment was therefore out and the shoe locked up.

That's a mistake I won't make again. I wonder how many other opportunities for learning I'm going to experience ?

 

[Ronmar]

I may have figured out what went wrong. It's what I call a "stupid user error". Me being the stupid user

I am learning . . . slowly.

Today I was putting the brake back together with the old adjuster, which seemed to be working fine. I had the drum on and was starting to adjust them to 30 thousandths and I noticed that the drum was not fully seated. I had two lug nuts on but they were not fully torqued down. I guess one side of the drum was 3/16 inch out.

I started over and fully torqued 3 lug nuts.

It's working better now.

My current theory is that two days ago I adjusted the brake with the drum not fully seated, then when I mounted the tire and torqued the lug nuts, the drum seated properly, the adjustment was therefore out and the shoe locked up.

That's a mistake I won't make again. I wonder how many other opportunities for learning I'm going to experience ?

I like me a logical explanation…

 

[dwlindsey]

I got the truck out of the garage today. The brakes felt better. I've got all the sand out of two brakes . . . 4 more to go . . . but it already feels better.

In the ongoing effort to remove the spare tire lift, I removed the hydraulic lines from the manifold to the kneeling cylinders. 6 hydraulic lines removed. This gives me better access to one of the bolts on the spare tire lift. Removing that bolt is going to happen on another day.

I power washed the truck . . . again . . . 3rd time. Lots of sand still coming out of hidden places.

I removed the vinyl and foam from the engine hump inside the cab. Lots of sand under it.

I got the cab up using the new hydraulic hand pump. I replaced the cab latch, rather than rebuilding it. When the cab comes down, it doesn't go down all the way because it gets hung up on the cab latch arch. That arch moves fore and aft and looks like it's supposed to move. I don't know if it's moving too much, or if it's supposed to find the right position, but it regularly is just a little too far forward. I've got a weak bungie cord on it now pulling it back, which works, but something's not quite right, I think.

I changed the oil . . . which will require another power wash where oil from the old oil filter got on the frame. Next time . . . change oil THEN de-grease and power wash.

I got just less than 5 gallons of oil out, plus what was in the oil filter. I put 6.5 gallons in and it'll need another quart. Interestingly, the oil pressure is up. I was getting about 35 PSI at idle, now it quickly goes up to 50 PSI at idle. I'm not sure why that improved, but I like it.

 

[Ronmar]

Well new oil will do that

There are 2 hooks on the cab that engage the stubs on the side of the arch to pull it into alignment at the last second as the cab lowers. You have a little leeway on where the latch can rest fore-aft on the top of the arch, which should help you set the arch fore-aft tilt in relation to those guide pins which help it last minute align.

It should set mostly upright on the shocks inside the air bags, so the shock end bushings inside the airbags have probably disintegrated as I think most of these old ones do. I pulled my old ones apart after I put on my own airbag and shock system, and the shocks felt great, but the bushings were powder and little chunks, besides the bags looking like a cat had been sharpening its claws on them… one still held air though

 

[dwlindsey]

Well new oil will do that

There are 2 hooks on the cab that engage the stubs on the side of the arch to pull it into alignment at the last second as the cab lowers. You have a little leeway on where the latch can rest fore-aft on the top of the arch, which should help you set the arch fore-aft tilt in relation to those guide pins which help it last minute align.

It should set mostly upright on the shocks inside the air bags, so the shock end bushings inside the airbags have probably disintegrated as I think most of these old ones do. I pulled my old ones apart after I put on my own airbag and shock system, and the shocks felt great, but the bushings were powder and little chunks, besides the bags looking like a cat had been sharpening its claws on them… one still held air though

The arch is really pretty loose and does not sit up straight. So I'm thinking you're on target that the shock bushings are dead. One more thing to replace . . .

 

[Ronmar]

The cab hinge pivots and front bushings also have a say in how the cab sets in relation to the arch and latch. Those rubber bushings are also a consumeable item...

The cab air suspension is quite a bit of unobtanium, it is hit and miss on finding OEM replacements or parts like bags from Power packer. Many have replaced the whole system with one using external cab shocks and off the shelf airbags. I built my own more compact design along this line... Mine rides really nice and the other external shock designs appear to be well received also(I think they all have a little more travel like mine does).

I think General probably has the right idea though. They did away with the cab suspension system entirely on the A1R trucks, but they also added coil springs to the mix on the front suspension... It would be a fairly simple matter to weld up a bolt-in pedestal that re-creates the OEM shock assembly at its mid travel/ride height position... I like designing and building but If mine ever gives me any trouble that is probably where I will go...

 

[dwlindsey]

My air springs and bushings apparently need attention, but meanwhile I'm working to delete things I don't want or need. I've got the hydraulic lines off of the cab lift / spare tire lift manifold. The 3 lines that are left are the 3 air lines for the air springs. I'd like to get them off and replaced with a simple switch.

I believe there are two 1/8 inch lines and one 1/4 inch line. I imagine the 1/8 inch lines go to the air springs and the 1/4 inch is supply. Do I have that right?

I've purchased this switch:

Amazon.com

It's a "3 way 2 position" switch that has 3 1/4 inch female ports. Two on one side labeled A & R and one on the opposite side labeled P:





I've got the fittings coming tomorrow.

I'm guessing that the 1/4 inch tube goes in P and the two 1/8 tubes go into A & R. Is that correct? If so, does it matter which 1/8 inch tube goes into A and which goes into R?

I'd appreciate you guys helping to prevent me doing something stupid.

 

[Ronmar]

There should be 4 airlines On the hydraulic manifold. On the rear side of the wet tank is the air brake protection valve(looks like a pressure regulator), which only lets air out of the wet tank if the wet tank is above ~85PSI. After that there is a large hose up to feed CTIS and the fan/power divider valves under the dash, and a small hose that feeds the cab suspension control valve. The output small line runs to the height control valve.

the other air input to the hydraulic control valve assy comes from a remote control valve either at the service tanks on the A0 or over the rear axle on the A1 trucks. This remote control only allows air to supply the AOP control valve in the hydraulic control assy, if the park brakes are set… the output from that AOP control button feeds the AOP.

I use a valve similar to what you pictured to control my cab suspension. It feeds air from that small line off the wet tank protection valve in one position, and allows air to flow from the suspension back out the vent port to deflate the suspension in the other position…

 

[dwlindsey]

There should be 4 airlines On the hydraulic manifold. On the rear side of the wet tank is the air brake protection valve(looks like a pressure regulator), which only lets air out of the wet tank if the wet tank is above ~85PSI. After that there is a large hose up to feed CTIS and the fan/power divider valves under the dash, and a small hose that feeds the cab suspension control valve. The output small line runs to the height control valve.

the other air input to the hydraulic control valve assy comes from a remote control valve either at the service tanks on the A0 or over the rear axle on the A1 trucks. This remote control only allows air to supply the AOP control valve in the hydraulic control assy, if the park brakes are set… the output from that AOP control button feeds the AOP.

I use a valve similar to what you pictured to control my cab suspension. It feeds air from that small line off the wet tank protection valve in one position, and allows air to flow from the suspension back out the vent port to deflate the suspension in the other position…

View attachment 946095

I've only got 3 air lines on the manifold now and the air springs do go up and down. If there should be 4 air lines, then I may have disconnected the 4th one a few weeks ago, I'll go looking for it in the morning.

If/when I find the 4th line, what should I do with it?

 

[Ronmar]

I've only got 3 air lines on the manifold now and the air springs do go up and down. If there should be 4 air lines, then I may have disconnected the 4th one a few weeks ago, I'll go looking for it in the morning.

If/when I find the 4th line, what should I do with it?

I guess that would depend on which line it is