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Thread: MEP-003A hook up question

  1. #21
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    This has been incredibly helpful and informative. Thanks for all the help it is appreciated. I want to say thank you to all off you that helped with this thread.

    Jim

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    Speddmon, you are the electrical professional here and I know the NEC is constantly changing, when it comes to unbonding the neutral and grounding the generator frame I am just going by what I have been told by multiple generator professionals as well as what is published in the backup generator installations guides published by both Kohler and Generac.

    Ike

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    Blind squirrel rehabiltator Speddmon's Avatar
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    Ike, I am not disagreeing with you. Unbonding the neutral from the ground is a safe way to do it....if you are driving a ground at the generator itself. Also, the NEC is supposed to be the basic rules for any electrical work, if manufacturers or localities want to go above and beyond the NEC that's fine, and we must comply. However, If you drive a ground at the generator itself and DO NOT unbond the neutral, then you are in violation of the NEC because there are now two paths for the neutral current.

    I'm simply saying, as long as you run a seperate grounding conductor along with the other three wires back to your main panel, then you are safe for that installation, and NEC compliant. Does this mean that in inspector will not make you drive a saperate ground rod? No! Over the years I've found that a lot of inspectors think they know more than the people doing the actual work, but since they are the final word, and you cannot complete the installation without their OK, we as electricians must do as they say. Right or wrong. I'm sure that the requirements for becoming an inspector are different in all locations. But here it is pretty easy to become an inspector without having much working knowledge of the NEC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovry4x4 View Post
    That's why I knew the answer and you didn't. I read the kindling.
    He is "anti-doghead".

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    1970 M35A2 "The Stone Wagon" SOLD
    1985 M1028/M1031 w/700R4 "Road Oiler"
    MEP-003a 3000 hrs
    MEP-003a 1500 hrs
    1964 Case 530CK "Construction King" Backhoe/loader "Yard Oiler"

    MEP-002a & MEP-003a Spin-on oil filter kits are still 4 sale in the classified section

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  5. #24
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    Speddmon, as I said you are the professional on the topic, no disagreement on my end, just going by the publications which seem to go against the current NEC rules.

    Ike

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    I know this thread has gotten off track quite a bit from the original post, but I feel I need to clear a few things up for ya’ll. This may clear them up, or it may confuse you even more. This all deals with the NEC language, and even after all of these years dealing with it, I still get confused, as you will see as you read this long explanation. Thanks to Isaac-1 for questioning this and forcing me to dig deeper into the NEC and research the answer.

    When to drive a ground rod at your generator? There are a few different answers to this question, and they all relate to the type of installation you have. The only time you are required to drive a ground rod at your generator is if the generator is considered a “separately derived system” (SDS) by the NEC….in general, most all residential generator hook-ups are NOT separately derived systems. The definition of a SDS is one in which the neutral wire is broken at the transfer switch...meaning there is no solid path back to the generator by any current carrying conductor (all three lines should be broken by your transfer switch, both hot lines and the neutral) However, you should still be using 4 wire cable so you have a ground running with the others as well.

    Non SDS (which are the most common) have a solid neutral bus in the transfer switch for connecting the neutral. As is the case for many of us that use the back-feed method using a double pole breaker in our main panel, we are creating a Non SDS because the neutral wire has a permanent complete path back to the generator. This means that no ground rod is to be driven at the generator if your neutral runs unbroken (electrically) back to your generator.

    Clear as mud right??? Now, here is where most of the confusion comes into play with our beloved MEP generators…the neutral wire on the generator is bonded to the frame of the generator. If you have a SDS, meaning the transfer breaks the neutral as well as the hot wires when you throw the switch, you are fine. Leave everything hooked up as it was when you bought the generator and make sure you drive your ground rod, because you have the SDS in its purest form. However, if you, like most of us have a NON SEPERATELY DERIVED SYSTEM, then you must

    A)NOT DRIVE A GROUND ROD!!!!
    B)UNHOOK THE NEUTRAL (L0) BOND AT THE FRAME!!!

    Now that clears it all up, right??? Wrong. Now, what if you have a hook-up where you have a cord running to your house going into a pin and sleeve connector at your transfer switch and your transfer switch is set up to be a non SDS system. In that case you must not have a ground rod driven at the set, and you must have the neutral un-bonded from the frame….but what about if you want to use the generator as a stand-alone unit to run some equipment in your shop, like a welder or something by itself and not have it hooked up to your house….now the generator is back to being it’s own power source like the military used them for and must have the neutral bonded again and have the ground rod driven.

    So, to save yourself the hassle and confusion of all of this, use a transfer switch that switches the neutral wire as well as the hot wires, drive a ground rod at the generator and leave the generator frame/neutral bonding just as it was when you bought it. If you want to use it as a stand alone generator, then you are covered; if you want to use it for your house when needed, you’re covered.

    I know this was long winded, and you probably still are confused about this all, as I said, I was confused as well. Dealing with the NEC is very tricky business and requires a lot of research. I am sorry if I misled any of you with my earlier posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovry4x4 View Post
    That's why I knew the answer and you didn't. I read the kindling.
    He is "anti-doghead".

    Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then!



    1970 M35A2 "The Stone Wagon" SOLD
    1985 M1028/M1031 w/700R4 "Road Oiler"
    MEP-003a 3000 hrs
    MEP-003a 1500 hrs
    1964 Case 530CK "Construction King" Backhoe/loader "Yard Oiler"

    MEP-002a & MEP-003a Spin-on oil filter kits are still 4 sale in the classified section

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  8. #26
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    I have been following this with interest, thanks for posting guys!
    It's very much like laying out printed circuit boards for analog (op-amps) circuitry where ground loops must be avoided.
    Perhaps a couple of illustrations are in order at this point...
    Bjorn

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    I'll work on a few in a little while.
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovry4x4 View Post
    That's why I knew the answer and you didn't. I read the kindling.
    He is "anti-doghead".

    Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then!



    1970 M35A2 "The Stone Wagon" SOLD
    1985 M1028/M1031 w/700R4 "Road Oiler"
    MEP-003a 3000 hrs
    MEP-003a 1500 hrs
    1964 Case 530CK "Construction King" Backhoe/loader "Yard Oiler"

    MEP-002a & MEP-003a Spin-on oil filter kits are still 4 sale in the classified section

  10. #28
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    Regarding the bonding of L0 and the frame, how are they bonded?

    I have a second ground rod for my frame, but wasnt aware of a bond between L0 and the frame.
    Ian

    lots of green stuff!

  11. #29
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    L0 is bonded to the frame where the two groups of wires come out of the generator head itself, they go into the lower control panel on the left, but one of those wires also swings back around and bonds L0 to the frame...that's the one that should be disconnected and isolated. This is a picture I took a while back for someone else, but it shows the bonding wire.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovry4x4 View Post
    That's why I knew the answer and you didn't. I read the kindling.
    He is "anti-doghead".

    Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and then!



    1970 M35A2 "The Stone Wagon" SOLD
    1985 M1028/M1031 w/700R4 "Road Oiler"
    MEP-003a 3000 hrs
    MEP-003a 1500 hrs
    1964 Case 530CK "Construction King" Backhoe/loader "Yard Oiler"

    MEP-002a & MEP-003a Spin-on oil filter kits are still 4 sale in the classified section

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  13. #30
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    is that the wire from rear connector j2 thats connected to the back of the ground lug?

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