5.9 Cummins Motor Source

[dan2002dd]

I have been following the postings about installing the 5.9 cummins into the M1008. I know these motors were used in buses and was wondering if this would be a good source for obtaining one. Is there any difference that in these motors that would prevent them from being used?

Next question is how many people are using the 400 transmission with the cummins motor? I would like to keep the stock transmission in the swap. I know the low gearing would affect the speed but I have the 36" hummer tires on it and that offsets the gearing enough for me. I also plan on changing to the 37" hummer tires as the 36s are a very rough ride.

By the way I have a 86 M1028 with 36" hummer tires, no lift, fenders cut, Front only wheel spacers, and everything else stock.

 

[mudguppy]

5.9s were used in dodge trucks from '89-'98 (mechanical) and '98-'07 (computer), medium duty trucks such as F600-800s, F650/750, delivery vans, etc, buses, garbage trucks, street sweepers, loaders, graders, forklifts, boats, and stationary applications such as for pumps and gen-sets.

finding one won't be hard. i believe your best application will be out of a dodge truck because the oil pan (rear sump), exhaust manifold/trubo mount, intake, and intercooler + piping will be closer to optimal for swapping into your truck as well as accessories such as power steering pump, vac pump, 12V alt, etc.

none of the commercial or industrial applications "prevent" you from doing any of this, however, as all parts interchange.

i wouldn't use the TH400 - i believe it will take some beefing to survive behind the 5.9 and after all that you'll still have a non-lockup non-OD tranny. rather, i'd advise getting the auto trans out of the donor dodge truck and putting a good converter and aftermarket valvebody in it (about $1500 total cost). years '94-'96 have the 47rh (hydraulic) trans and '97-?? use the 47re (electronic) trans.

if it were me, i'd just use the engine/nv4500 from a donor dodge and adapt your transfer. then you can spend ~$600-$900 on a clutch and be done.

 

[Blood_of_Tyrants]

The stock TH400 is plenty strong enough to take the torque of a 5.9L Cummins. The TH400 was used behind 60's muscle car 427's and 454's both of which easily have twice the torque of a Commins.

 

[Jones]

5.9s seem to be a little more reasonably priced at large truck wrecking yards than at Dodge specialty yards. The big outfits are wrecking out Peterbilts, Kenworths and the like and they don't seem to have the turnover with the smaller engines (5.9s are small compared to the commercial tractors' power plants).
Once you get your hands on a 5.9 you'll find all kinds of interesting configurations are available to you.
The other-than-Dodge applications give you things like; a Bendix Tu-flow 550 air compressor with power steering pump (bolts on under the stock I.P.) a variety of charge air coolers (air to air, air to coolant, etc.), exhaust manifolds that give low to high turbo placement as well as forward or standard locations, mechanical tach drive (replaces the stock oil filler - oil filler is moved to any one of the six valve covers), SAE bell housings that give you a bunch of different transmission options as well as driver side or passenger side starter locations.
Not all of this will fit into your CUCV but it's nice to know one has choices.

 

[bigburb11]

427's and 454's both of which easily have twice the torque of a Commins.

I believe the lowest 6cyl Cummins torque rating is around 400ft-lbs.

 

[Oasis-3]

GL has the Cummins 5.9 from time to time, they were in AF tugs

 

[Crash_AF]

The problem with auto tranny's and the Cummins isn't just the amount of torque, it's also the harmonic vibration and the strength of the power impulses. Both of which can hammer the torque converter apart. That said, the 400 with a good aftermarket diesel converter will handle the 5.9 just fine. You can also get the proper bellhousing adapter from a bread truck 4BT along with a GM power steering pump and alternator. If you can find a bad 4BT like I did, you can get the whole deal for under $500. I am now just waiting to find a good price on a medium duty 5.9 like Jones was talkint about instead of a Dodge and I'll be all set for a GM swap.

Later,
Joe

 

[m35_military_parts]

I bought a 1990 Bluebird school bus that has a 5.9 cummins with a Allison transmission. I am putting it in a shortened M35. You can get a school bus around $1000 to $4000 dollars. That would be a great driveline for a M1008. The only thing that you would need is a divorced t-case out of an older Dodge truck.

 

[Blood_of_Tyrants]

I believe the lowest 6cyl Cummins torque rating is around 400ft-lbs.

So? The 427 and 454 had well over 500 ft-lbs of torque.

 

[dan2002dd]

Thanks for the info. The reason I was looking to use the motor out of the school bus is the air compressor for the air brakes would be a great addition. Also what would be needed to use the allison transmission in the truck?

 

[bobbed818]

Not to get too sidetracked, but he did say lowest torque. A stock cummins in an '06-up Dodge is 600 or 610, I don't remember the exact number. We all know "stock" is never good enough. 700, 800, even 900 ft/lbs is not that hard to squeeze out of a 5.9. Allison is probably a better chioce.

 

[Phily]

Not to get too sidetracked, but he did say lowest torque. A stock cummins in an '06-up Dodge is 600 or 610, I don't remember the exact number. We all know "stock" is never good enough. 700, 800, even 900 ft/lbs is not that hard to squeeze out of a 5.9. Allison is probably a better chioce.

A M1028 w/ a ISB/Allison/DHD241 is the way a truck should be made.

 

[Croatan_Kid]

I found a wrecked '92 W250. I bought the motor and all associated parts and pieces for $2000, then got the adapter plate and bellhousing for 94 & up Cummins and used a Chevy NV4500 and NP205.

In my opinion, and having built and driven my Cummins powered M1008 for a few months now, if I was to have built it as an automatic, I would defintely use a 47R transmission (which can be run off of two pressure switches so no major electronics are needed) or...something with overdrive that will easily bolt to the Cummins. In stock form, the 5.9s are governed to 2400 rpm whereas the 6.2 is 3600. That will drastically reduce your possible top speed, even with the 37s. You can get 3200 rpm gov springs though. If you're going to spend the money and take the time to do a Cummins swap, why not go ahead and have overdrive? I can't think of anything bad that comes from having it...unless reduced operating temperatures of the transmission, better fuel mileage, and reduced in-cab noise are bad things I would still like to have a 6th gear or an overdrive box even with the NV4500, 4.56s and close to 39" tires that I'm running. Although I am satisfied with a consistent 19.5 mpg and amazing amounts of torque

It's easiest to just get one out of a Dodge pickup as everything is already setup for pickup truck useage. Also, the Dodge alternator is much easier to use with the swap. It only takes 4 wires to make it work and it uses a very easily replaced, external voltage regulator. It's also a 120 amp alt The PS pump will work too, just bolt the pressure line to the back of it and add a brass "T" on the return line to the resevoir. Plus, if you stick to all Dodge stuff or mix and match Dodge/Chevy drivetrain, all the replacement parts you'll ever need are readily available (and cheaper) at your local parts house.

There are sooooo many possibilites when you put a Cummins in something. Several different transmissions, whether automatic or manual, OD or non-OD, transfer cases, etc, etc. If you have any questions feel free to ask me or go browse around 4btswapsdotcom



To go along with what Crash_AF said:

It's not only the harmonics and pulses like he said, but the gas motors developed torque up around 2500-4000 rpm. Things are moving quite fast and it's not quite so hard on things, but a diesel makes the torque at a much lower rpm. Again, it's just really hard on parts.

 

[mudguppy]

... The TH400 was used behind 60's muscle car 427's and 454's both of which easily have twice the torque of a Commins.

someone has lied to you.... bad.

So? The 427 and 454 had well over 500 ft-lbs of torque.

no they didn't. again, you need to stop listening to that person. basically, if you believe that an automotive big block gas motor and a truck/commercial diesel are comparable in torque performance, then you don't have much experience w/ one of those categories.


a couple things to note about torque out of the cummins. first, when the '94+ dodge cummins trucks were really making headway and aftermarket parts and power upgrades were taking off, it was not uncommon for baseline dyno testing of these trucks to have rear-wheel torque meet or exceed the advertised flywheel ratings. many '440ft-lb' trucks put out 450ft-lbs at the wheels.

second, a cummins from a medium duty or commercial application is going to be rated [stock] for much higher torque output. most 210hp motors were rated for 570ft-lbs in commercial applications. the 230hp motors were 620ft-lbs. these torque ratings were often a 1600rpm. now, all of this is basically moot because any of the 5.9s can easily meet and far exceed these numbers with some basic mods with hand tools.

Crash_AF and Croatan_Kid are right about the transmission: the torque converter will need to be upgraded because of the extremely harsh pulsing that the cummins puts out and, likely, the clutches will have to be upgraded because of the amount and low rpm of torque. so, exactly like i said, if you're going to do all this upgrading, why not spend the same money on a lockup/OD tranny? or do the nv4500 + clutch.

 

[bigburb11]

All this talk about torque has me browsing online for used dodges...

 

[91W350]

I had a 2003 Dodge Cummins and the horsepower advantage over my 91 and 93 Cummins trucks was huge. The old trucks had plenty of torque, you would either pull it, spin the tires, or break something. The 2003 with a boost from Edge Performance though was like driving a big block Chevelle in the late 60s. It was insane, hard to imagine that much power in a 6800 pound truck. You could easily smoke the tires through 1st, 2nd and into 3rd. If I was going to try to drag race somebody, I would always launch in four wheel drive to keep it from blowing the tires away.


The guys are right, the torque these sixes put out may have equal claims in torque, but it is far different than the big block Chevrolets. I had plenty of those too. They are also correct in the overdrive transmission. Dodge used a 3.54 gear ratio in most of the early Cummins trucks, some had 4.11 and a few of the really early non-overdrive trucks had 3.07 or 3.08 gears. A lot of us looked for the early 3.08 axles to put in our later trucks to get the fuel mileage and top end up. They were hard to find as not many were made in four wheel drive. The 4.56 of the M1008 is really low for a Cummins.

 

[Jones]

I'm running a 12 valve 5.9 out of my old Dodge pick-up with an Allison AT545N out of a 5.9 powered Freightliner FedEx delivery truck, in the baby HEMTT.
I got everything from the crank flange back so it was a simple bolt-together operation.
I opted for an automatic so I wouldn't have clutch and shift linkage to try and figure out; and at my advanced age, doing the clutch pedal fandango in traffic is something I try to avoid at all costs.

For what it's worth the 5.9 pans are reversable with the matching oil pan pick-up so front or rear sump is only a matter of choice.
For those who want/need air, the Bendix compressor bolts in directly under the IP and the compressor has a power steering pump attached to it's rear end... very neat and tidy.

Anytime you do a cross-species swap you're gonna have things to iron out, so motor mount adaption is just a step in the process.
Always DO YOUR HOMEWORK. It's only smart to make sure everything matches on any swap-- I had to change out the power steering pump for one with the correct pressure and volume outputs to match the needs of the HF54 steering box and assist ram.

Here's a picture of the pump side of my 5.9/Allison package.

 

[woodywood]

i have a 5.9 with a allison 6 speed behind it in a school bus with airconditioning(yes i think it might have been a short bus!) i bought it for a deuce swap for the air and auto but i will sell the motor and tranny for 2 grand drive it like you want to might even sell the whole thing if the price is right!901-334-6240

 

[Phily]

i have a 5.9 with a allison 6 speed behind it in a school bus with airconditioning(yes i think it might have been a short bus!) i bought it for a deuce swap for the air and auto but i will sell the motor and tranny for 2 grand drive it like you want to might even sell the whole thing if the price is right!901-334-6240

What kind of Cummins and what kind of series Allison?

 

[11Echo]

To go along with what Crash_AF said:

It's not only the harmonics and pulses like he said, but the gas motors developed torque up around 2500-4000 rpm. Things are moving quite fast and it's not quite so hard on things, but a diesel makes the torque at a much lower rpm. Again, it's just really hard on parts.

The swap of a 5.9 into a CUCV has been discussed before. GM allowed you to order 4 and 6 cylinder Cummins from the dealer in the middle 80's.
here's a link.
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/27071-5-9-cummins-m1009.html

As a side note here, the 454 in the late 80/early 90's was rated at 385 lbs torque at 1600 rpm. I have/had a couple of them behind T 400's.