• Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!

  • Microsoft MSN, Live, Hotmail, Outlook email users may not be receiving emails. We are working to resolve this issue. Please add support@steelsoldiers.com to your trusted contacts.

 

Auto transmission cooler theory

hatzie

New member
21
13
3
Location
Wentworth, NH
Too cold isn't going to be a problem in one of these slushboxes. There's enough energy wasted that you'll be hard pressed to keep it under 150°F while driving unless you're on the Dalton Hwy in the dead of winter. You want to keep temps between 160°F and 180°F while driving. If it drops to 140°F while you're idling so what.

Just be sure to fill the cooler from the bottom and exhaust from the top. Interrupt the top radiator line and run to the bottom fitting on the external cooler. Fluid will then run out the top of the external cooler and back to the transmission.
 
Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
The best way to do what?

There are many ways to do most things. Which way is the "best" way depends on what you are trying to do and under what conditions. Factory designs are "least common denominator" designs. They aim for the middle, the average use, and they aim to do it at the lowest possible cost consistent with their quality objectives. Chevy has different quality objectives than BMW or Ferrari or Yugo, so they will make different choices about designs and materials.

Conditions vary, too, and therefore, needs. For a guy in Alaska, overcooling the transmission is a real issue. For a guy in Panama, not so much. If you are toodling around town with only an occasional small load, your cooling needs are different than someone who is towing heavy loads long distances regularly. You had better make different choices than Mr. Toodler.

If you are going to have only ONE cooler, where it goes is a different choice than if you are going to have two. If your budget is small, you do the best you can with what you can afford. Bill Gates has a few more options. Maybe he uses a cooler from an F750, with its built in bypass and massive capacity. Maybe I can only afford a tube-type from Autozone.

Choices, trade-offs, and variables. There is no ONE BEST WAY.
Your forgetting overheating the engine radiator part. Auto manufactures go for the most practical and economical way which usually is the best way. As far as quality of parts go that is another matter all together. There is also no way you will over cool a transmissions oil unless your in the artic. The torque converter will see to that. Also the radiator cooling will heat the oil if it's colder then the radiator.
 

MarcusOReallyus

Well-known member
4,524
810
113
Location
Virginia
Your forgetting overheating the engine radiator part.

Which is one reason to dump transmission heat out BEFORE you put it into your radiator.


Auto manufactures go for the most practical and economical way which usually is the best way.
Best for them. Not necessarily best for the customer.


There is also no way you will over cool a transmissions oil ...
Not true. That's just the old way of thinking, like back when splash oiling was considered all that was needed. These days, about the only place you can find splash lubrication is in an air compressor. Over time, we learn better ways to do things. Modern transmissions have thermostats so that they are run at optimum temperatures.


...unless your in the artic.
The OP is in the arctic, or close to it.


Also the radiator cooling will heat the oil if it's colder then the radiator.
Not if you have an extra cooler plumbed in AFTER the radiator, which is what is usually done.
 

cucvrus

Well-known member
11,274
9,603
113
Location
Jonestown Pennsylvania
All This conversation has really made me stick to my way of thinking. So that I do not do it incorrectly and just plain waste my time. I will keep it stock as always. That will work for the time being. Maybe in 30 years after reviewing several thousand more theory's and explanations of what is better and best I may opt to change something. So far I just do an annual fluid/filter change and call it quits. Only thing I ever changed from the original design was the transmission pan. Using the deeper sump HMMWV pan with a drain plug. The drain plug was the deal sealer for me. That fact and they were in a scrap metal bin for free (sold). But in all seriousness, all this talk can be very confusing to a new guy and may scare him into doing some unneeded changes. Changing the way fluid flows after 30 years of flowing another way is just IMHO not needed. I pull trailers , drive interstates , plow snow, off road and do general hard work with the CUCV's and have had great results. And no rubber hoses in my transmission lines. Good Day. Do as you wish. Use in hard and service it harder and your CUCV will last for years to come.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
Which is one reason to dump transmission heat out BEFORE you put it into your radiator.




Best for them. Not necessarily best for the customer.




Not true. That's just the old way of thinking, like back when splash oiling was considered all that was needed. These days, about the only place you can find splash lubrication is in an air compressor. Over time, we learn better ways to do things. Modern transmissions have thermostats so that they are run at optimum temperatures.




The OP is in the arctic, or close to it.




Not if you have an extra cooler plumbed in AFTER the radiator, which is what is usually done.

Marcus, you seem to have some strong opinions on this. I'm curious, what do you do for a living ? Are you by chance an engineer ?
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
010.jpg003.jpg012.jpg

This is how I have my truck setup. Since I removed my engine (I'll be honest, I hated that 6.2 engine ! ) and went with a Chevy 383 Hi-Torque I no longer needed the engine oil cooler in the radiator. So I routed my transmission lines to go there. Where the transmission lines used to go I routed the power steering lines. In the first picture you see the radiator cooler and the spin-on oil filter. The filter is black so it's hard to see but you can see the line going into the housing. The second picture shows my transmission lines coming out of the trans. The third picture shows one of the coolers in front of the radiator. I have two connected. Each is capable of cooling for a 16,000 Ib vehicle load. All the lines are the Stainless Steel PTFE hose. They will never rust and they are capable of 2,000 psi so I don't need to worry about bursting the lines ! Plus if they get hit with a rock or something they will just deflect it and go on doing there job unlike a solid pipe which would dent or even break causing a major leak.
 

MarcusOReallyus

Well-known member
4,524
810
113
Location
Virginia
All This conversation has really made me stick to my way of thinking. .
I'm glad it's a free enough country (for now) that we call all do it the way we choose, and I'm glad that there have always been a lot of people who do NOT think like you.

If everybody thought like you, we'd all still be living in caves. "Ah bin living in caves fer forty years, and it's good enough for me!"



Marcus, you seem to have some strong opinions on this. I'm curious, what do you do for a living ? Are you by chance an engineer ?
Well, I paid attention in 5th and 7th grade science class, where basic thermodynamics and fluid dynamics were covered, so I know how heat flows, and I know how fluids flow. Of course, they didn't call it by those fancy names, but that's what it was. See, I never bought that stupid idea that I didn't need to pay attention to something because "I'll never need to know this stuff.", as if making a living with it were the only value in learning something.

And since my Dad worked in the Canadian Army on cold-weather vehicle research during WWII, I have some second-hand understanding of how radically different things are up there, and what effect that kind of cold has on vehicles. It may be only second-hand understanding, but that's really all any person of normal intelligence needs to recognize that different conditions call for different approaches.

And since I have mastered the very difficult art of typing questions into a search engine, I know that Homer Alaska, where the OP lives, is several hundred miles closer to the Arctic Circle than where my Dad worked, so it's probably colder.

And since I have worked on my own vehicles for about 40 years now I long ago got over the silly idea that manufacturers always design things the best possible way. Sometimes, what they do is downright stupid, really.

Of course, being a man of practical experience, I know that there's no such thing as ONE BEST WAY, in the first place.

Oh, and I can read, and do read, so I know that things change, and that technology advances, and ..... this may be hard to believe for some of you, but really, it's true .... we really do learn better ways to do things, which is why transmissions now have external filters [I've been running transmissions for 40 years and never needed no external filter!] and they do have thermostats to keep them from running too cool, which won't BREAK them, but it will shorten their lives.

Oh, and I've never been a slave to the "We've always done it this way, no need to change now!" mentality.

As I write this, I'm sitting in a comfortable living room in a short sleeved shirt, and it's 14 degrees outside. A couple of years ago, it would have been cold in here, and the other end of the house, where the wood stove is located, would have been uncomfortably hot. It's not any more, by the way. The reason it's comfortable down there and here and we are burning less wood to be more comfortable is because I understand 5th and 7th grade level science, and I finally decided to ignore the advice of many HVAC professionals. They all said it wouldn't work, and hey, they should know, right? But I finally decided to ignore them and I installed some ducts in my attic, and a furnace blower, and now I take warm air from the hot end and bring it to the cool end, and no, unlike what the "experts" said, I do NOT lose all the heat in the attic, and in fact, the living room stays a few degrees warmer than the other end down by the wood stove.

And all because I paid attention in 5th and 7th grade, and understand the BASICS.

So, does that answer your question? Have you got anything better to add to this discussion than, "We've always done it this way!", or "experts know best!"?

Frankly, in my view, that contribution isn't worth the electrons it takes to post it.
 

Skinny

Well-known member
2,130
486
83
Location
Portsmouth, NH
I don't think you can group a TH400 with modern transmissions. Its an apples to orange comparison. The TH400 is a dumb simpson planetary design with only a few inputs to control shifting...period. I'm sure transmission fluid temp is important to a degree but guys, this isn't rocket science. Put a cooler before the trans cooler, run a gauge, color it done. Anything more is over engineering a stupid trans that doesn't care.

Something like a 6 speed Allison is light years ahead with multiple shift solenoids to do many things to change one gear unlike the TH400 and fluid level/temp is super critical on most transmissions built in the last ten to fifteen years.

I don't think we need to start bashing members. Say your piece and move on.
 

Drock

New member
1,020
9
0
Location
Eatonton GA
Oh oh this is getting good:popcorn:..... There are obviously several variables to this subject such as ,(climate, or climates the truck is operating in.(arctic circle, desert, etc), (terrain-hills, mountains, or flat), (all while-commuting, hauling, towing, off roading ), (circumcised or not)... The only true way to make an informed decision on this subject would be to add a trans temp gauge and monitor your readings. Then you can decide, if, how, what type, how many, or where you may need a cooler...or coolers:beer:
 
Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I'm glad it's a free enough country (for now) that we call all do it the way we choose, and I'm glad that there have always been a lot of people who do NOT think like you.

If everybody thought like you, we'd all still be living in caves. "Ah bin living in caves fer forty years, and it's good enough for me!"





Well, I paid attention in 5th and 7th grade science class, where basic thermodynamics and fluid dynamics were covered, so I know how heat flows, and I know how fluids flow. Of course, they didn't call it by those fancy names, but that's what it was. See, I never bought that stupid idea that I didn't need to pay attention to something because "I'll never need to know this stuff.", as if making a living with it were the only value in learning something.

And since my Dad worked in the Canadian Army on cold-weather vehicle research during WWII, I have some second-hand understanding of how radically different things are up there, and what effect that kind of cold has on vehicles. It may be only second-hand understanding, but that's really all any person of normal intelligence needs to recognize that different conditions call for different approaches.

And since I have mastered the very difficult art of typing questions into a search engine, I know that Homer Alaska, where the OP lives, is several hundred miles closer to the Arctic Circle than where my Dad worked, so it's probably colder.

And since I have worked on my own vehicles for about 40 years now I long ago got over the silly idea that manufacturers always design things the best possible way. Sometimes, what they do is downright stupid, really.

Of course, being a man of practical experience, I know that there's no such thing as ONE BEST WAY, in the first place.

Oh, and I can read, and do read, so I know that things change, and that technology advances, and ..... this may be hard to believe for some of you, but really, it's true .... we really do learn better ways to do things, which is why transmissions now have external filters [I've been running transmissions for 40 years and never needed no external filter!] and they do have thermostats to keep them from running too cool, which won't BREAK them, but it will shorten their lives.

Oh, and I've never been a slave to the "We've always done it this way, no need to change now!" mentality.

As I write this, I'm sitting in a comfortable living room in a short sleeved shirt, and it's 14 degrees outside. A couple of years ago, it would have been cold in here, and the other end of the house, where the wood stove is located, would have been uncomfortably hot. It's not any more, by the way. The reason it's comfortable down there and here and we are burning less wood to be more comfortable is because I understand 5th and 7th grade level science, and I finally decided to ignore the advice of many HVAC professionals. They all said it wouldn't work, and hey, they should know, right? But I finally decided to ignore them and I installed some ducts in my attic, and a furnace blower, and now I take warm air from the hot end and bring it to the cool end, and no, unlike what the "experts" said, I do NOT lose all the heat in the attic, and in fact, the living room stays a few degrees warmer than the other end down by the wood stove.

And all because I paid attention in 5th and 7th grade, and understand the BASICS.

So, does that answer your question? Have you got anything better to add to this discussion than, "We've always done it this way!", or "experts know best!"?

Frankly, in my view, that contribution isn't worth the electrons it takes to post it.

So we can safely say you are Not an engineer or a mechanic by trade then. All I'm saying is my experience of over 40 years as a "ASE Certified Master Mechanic" says otherwise to your learned opinion. But like "Skinny" says this is just a TH400, a 60 year old design. The reason they went to the "thermostatically controlled oil temps has more to do with emisions then anything else. Remember the dumping of heat in front of the radiator thing. Engines need to be at a constant temperature for best fuel efficiency and economy, thus less fuel emissions. As far as being a "Slave" to the masters of manufacture, didn't you see my post how I "modified" my transmission installation and cooling system ? Really Marcus there was never a need to get so personal here. You had an opinion and I proved you wrong, why get all excited about it ? :whistle: LOL !!!!
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
TRANSMISSION OIL COOLING SYSTEM BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION The transmissions of many modern cars and trucks employ torque converters. Heat produced by the torque converter on the oil used to transmit power must be dispersed. A conventional method involves pumping the transmission oil through lines into a separate tube of the radiator, where some of the heat is absorbed by the engine coolant in an adjoining section of the radiator. The transmission oil cooling tube is inside the radiator but no oil gets into the coolant.

This arrangement is not particularly efficient and transmission overheating can "contribute considerably to engine overheating by adding to the heat load which the radiator must handle from the engine." The addition of the popular trailer which is towed behind cars and trucks particularly increases this and other problems resulting in the so-called trailer packages installed in vehicles used for trailer hauling.

Widespread use of transmission oil coolers has been adopted as a solution to the problem. One popular type of installation is the addition of a transmission cooler in series with the conventional radiator connection. The transmission oil first is circulated through the conventional radiator and then through an auxiliary cooler before returning to the transmission.

This little tidbit is from the US patent on a thermostatically controlled transmission cooling system . Like I said we don't want the engine overheating. Though of course it does benefit the transmission too.
 

hatzie

New member
21
13
3
Location
Wentworth, NH
While arguments are entertaining.... :popcorn: A little research is often helpful...

If you are really worried about the transmission fluid temperature getting too low there's a little invention called a thermostatic bypass valve that's typically been used for engine oil coolers and is built into many modern transmissions... The 50+ year old TH400 doesn't qualify as modern.

There are engine oil thermostats that are fully open at 215°F-220°F range to boil off the aromatic hydrocarbons that slip by the rings and more importantly boil off any condensation in the engine oil. There are transmission oil versions that fully open at 170°F-180°F. There's very little if any condensation and no combustion byproducts so running above 215°F or more is unnecessary and abusive to the transmission. The better engineered versions of these thermostats flow @10% through the cooler below the shutoff to avoid air pocket formation in the oil cooler and thermal shock from dumping arctic oil into the return flow.

In the frozen Arctic North I'd run the lines into the rad and then through a transmission fluid thermostat to a low pressure drop cooler. In the rest of the world I'd probably choose to bypass the radiator loop completely. Keeping in mind that flow is generally supposed to run from bottom to top to avoid air pocket formation.

Here are a couple transmission oil thermostats and one engine oil thermostat for comparison.
http://www.shop.perma-cool.com/1060-Transmission-Fluid-Thermostat-3-8-FPT-Ports-1060.htm
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-t...transmission-fluid-thermostat-165f-p-423.html

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-t...-engine-oil-cooler-thermostat-215f-p-434.html

 
Last edited:

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
While arguments are entertaining.... :popcorn: A little research is often helpful...

If you are really worried about the transmission fluid temperature getting too low there's a little invention called a thermostatic bypass valve that's typically been used for engine oil coolers and is built into many modern transmissions... The 50+ year old TH400 doesn't qualify as modern.

There are engine oil thermostats that are fully open at 215°F-220°F range to boil off the aromatic hydrocarbons that slip by the rings and more importantly boil off any condensation in the engine oil. There are transmission oil versions that fully open at 170°F-180°F. There's very little if any condensation and no combustion byproducts so running above 215°F or more is unnecessary and abusive to the transmission. The better engineered versions of these thermostats flow @10% through the cooler below the shutoff to avoid air pocket formation in the oil cooler and thermal shock from dumping arctic oil into the return flow.

In the frozen Arctic North I'd run the lines into the rad and then through a transmission fluid thermostat to a low pressure drop cooler. In the rest of the world I'd probably choose to bypass the radiator loop completely. Keeping in mind that flow is generally supposed to run from bottom to top to avoid air pocket formation.

Here are a couple transmission oil thermostats and one engine oil thermostat for comparison.
http://www.shop.perma-cool.com/1060-Transmission-Fluid-Thermostat-3-8-FPT-Ports-1060.htm
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-t...transmission-fluid-thermostat-165f-p-423.html

http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-t...-engine-oil-cooler-thermostat-215f-p-434.html

Your correct, though I wouldn't use a aftermarket seller to prove my point as they have a "personal" agenda ie: to sell products.
The temp of the transmission is kepted pretty close to optimal by using the radiator cooling. If the fluid is cold then the radiator will warm it up. If it's too hot the radiator cooler will cool it down. The use of an auxiliary cooler is also in my opinion a very wise idea.
As far as using facts my last post contained part of the patent for a thermostatically controlled cooling system.
 

hatzie

New member
21
13
3
Location
Wentworth, NH
Only posted the links to a few oil cooler thermostats, that are really for sale, to prove they aren't a Jackalope.:shrugs::D
I was lazy. Those were in the first 2 or 3 google hits. There are lots more than those. Some are more and some are less... Find one y'all like and use it if'n y'all decide you need one.
 

cucvrus

Well-known member
11,274
9,603
113
Location
Jonestown Pennsylvania
If i were ambitious and had an unlimited budget to spend on the best transmission cooling method on the market. I hired the best engineers. Retired NASA scientists and NASCAR race car designers. How much more extension of life on the TH400 transmission could I get? Lets just say I have the same M1009 for 18 years pulled trailers with it, interstate drove it with and without a trailer and off roaded it as it was when I purchased it from DRMO at 28K miles. How much more use would I get out of the vehicle? What different results would I get? I mean it has 128K on the clock now. It still does everything I throw at it. What will be different? The truck could die today and it would owe me nothing. And if it did break most guys including me would just do enough to fix it and fix it right. Most guys don't just spend money to change things unless they are getting something in return. How much more can you ask from a 30+ year old vehicle? The vehicle was excellent for what it was designed to do at the time it was designed to do it it was great. We are beyond that. There are bigger and better vehicles to do more and do it longer and more efficiently. I see them all the time. I like my CUCV. But it is just that to me a 30+ year old truck that gets the job done. Since I read all these posts I have been watching the transmission temperature of my new truck. It gets hot and fast. The temperature increases by the mile. It gets to 175 in very little time at interstate speed. The engine runs at 210. It has a towing package. I think all is well with both designs. They are just built at different times. Guys that have no idea what they are doing are scared by reading these posts. They think I pull my trailer up state I am going to hurt my transmission. All these thoughts cross the minds of guys that don't mess with vehicles. There are already people scared and misinformed about the CUCV to begin with. This just adds to the confusion. I had a guy tell me he could put a distributor and carb on my engine and convert it to gas. I said oh yea what about the spark plugs? He said they make adapters for them and all you do is screw them in. I said oh really. Another misinformed person that thinks its a gas conversion. See where I going? Very confusing to a novice that has one of these CUCV'S. Do as you wish I hope it all works out for you. And I really did think it was cool that people fix things as they were designed. But to each his own. Peace. I am not looking for an argument. Just clearing the air from some of the PM's I received.
 
Last edited:

hatzie

New member
21
13
3
Location
Wentworth, NH
If i were ambitious and had an unlimited budget to spend on the best transmission cooling method on the market. I hired the best engineers. Retired NASA scientists and NASCAR race car designers. How much more extension of life on the TH400 transmission could I get? Lets just say I have the same M1009 for 18 years pulled trailers with it, interstate drove it with and without a trailer and off roaded it as it was when I purchased it from DRMO at 28K miles. How much more use would I get out of the vehicle? What different results would I get? I mean it has 128K on the clock now. It still does everything I throw at it. What will be different? The truck could die today and it would owe me nothing. And if it did break most guys including me would just do enough to fix it and fix it right. Most guys don't just spend money to change things unless they are getting something in return. How much more can you ask from a 30+ year old vehicle? The vehicle was excellent for what it was designed to do at the time it was designed to do it it was great. We are beyond that. There are bigger and better vehicles to do more and do it longer and more efficiently. I see them all the time. I like my CUCV. But it is just that to me a 30+ year old truck that gets the job done. Since I read all these posts I have been watching the transmission temperature of my new truck. It gets hot and fast. The temperature increases by the mile. It gets to 175 in very little time at interstate speed. The engine runs at 210. It has a towing package. I think all is well with both designs. They are just built at different times. Guys that have no idea what they are doing are scared by reading these posts. They think I pull my trailer up state I am going to hurt my transmission. All these thoughts cross the minds of guys that don't mess with vehicles. There are already people scared and misinformed about the CUCV to begin with. This just adds to the confusion. I had a guy tell me he could put a distributor and carb on my engine and convert it to gas. I said oh yea what about the spark plugs? He said they make adapters for them and all you do is screw them in. I said oh really. Another misinformed person that thinks its a gas conversion. See where I going? Very confusing to a novice that has one of these CUCV'S. Do as you wish I hope it all works out for you. And I really did think it was cool that people fix things as they were designed. But to each his own. Peace. I am not looking for an argument. Just clearing the air from some of the PM's I received.
Good points. I was just answering the questions posed.
IMHO the TH400 is almost a 60 year old design that's very overbuilt for this application. Nobody should have issues driving one for 200,000 miles or more, as it came from the factory, as long as they change the fluid and strainer once in a while.
 

mbavers

Member
69
11
8
Location
homer ak
I appreciate all the responses I received on this thread. I should have mentioned what I posted on an earlier thread; this transmission is used for snow plowing.

Update: I had asked my mechanic to place a cooler in line before the radiator. What he did is eliminate the radiator entirely and mount a separate Derail cooler in front of the radiator. So my choice was made for me and I'm going to leave it as it is. I intend to install a temp gauge. If the fluid ever gets too cold I will simply block off a portion of the cooler. Not ideal, but good enough.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,071
2,388
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I appreciate all the responses I received on this thread. I should have mentioned what I posted on an earlier thread; this transmission is used for snow plowing.

Update: I had asked my mechanic to place a cooler in line before the radiator. What he did is eliminate the radiator entirely and mount a separate Derail cooler in front of the radiator. So my choice was made for me and I'm going to leave it as it is. I intend to install a temp gauge. If the fluid ever gets too cold I will simply block off a portion of the cooler. Not ideal, but good enough.
You will loose the ability to help heat the transmission oil without the radiator in the loop, but it's your decision.
 
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website like our supporting vendors. Their ads help keep Steel Soldiers going. Please consider disabling your ad blockers for the site. Thanks!

I've Disabled AdBlock
No Thanks