Decision on a knuckle boom crane.

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DB556

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Well, to preface I have a 1969 M35a2c with a D turbo, air shift, hardtop ect. I'm going to convert is to a long bed 4x4, pulling the mid axle, deuce front springs with air bags.
Currently its sits on power king 9-20's tires. But I have a set of MVT 395s on M35a3 wheels just waiting for me to flip the hubs.

I have a hydromax2 booster, master and remote reservoir, coming for a split brake system, and some parts to do a disc conversion
after I had a wheel cylinder blow out in the front hub last week going down a steep trail. That was fun.

I have a line on a HF45 box for power steering, and a vbelt power steering pump, which will run the power steering and hydromax brake booster.

I currently have 3200REL Liftmoore service truck crane mounted at the rear corner of the bed. Which had been a big help moving things around
But is limited to lifting capacity, straight out at full extension 15 feet I have a weight capacity of ~600 pounds. Recently I've had to move a lot of my equipment
which I was storing in my buddies warehouse, Milling machine, cnc router plasma table, etc. And I've run up against the limits of the crane.
My milling machine is a Cincinnati toolmaster which weight about 2500lbs. And I need to move it nearly at the max of 15ft so I had to use prybars, rollers, and winches.
(I know what will have to thank for my future hernia)

Now I have a line on a Hiab 650A knuckle boom crane, it needs some work doesn't have a pump, will need mounted to the frame instead of the bed.etc
But it has significantly more capacity and reach straight out at maximum hydraulic extension 16' feet(5 meters) it has a capacity of 2645lbs (1200kgs),
with the manual extensions out it has a capacity of 770lbs(350kgs) at ~30feet. Now it also weights in at 2116lbs (960kgs)

A weight increase of 1456lbs as the liftmoore only weights 660lbs not including the mount and battery so I'll round it up to 800lbs so approximately 1300 lbs more

My GVWR is 18000 lbs, with the current crane, my welder(lincoln weldnpower 225 (502lbs), a 9-20 spare, tool box with welding leads and tools and a half tank of diesel
I'm at 15520lbs, with going to 4x4 and cutting out some bed I'm guessing I'll loose 1800lbs, I don't know if I'll loose any weight going to disc brakes, might be a even swap in weight.
I'm planning to making a powered cart to move the welder and cables so I can get it closer some times I can get the truck closer and I don't need it on the truck all the time.
I have a 24v spool gun keep in the tool box.
So I'm looking at a weight of 13710 lbs once I do some questionable math. ( I don't know what the truck weighs with nothing in it, spare, crane, welder, tools etc. I might empty the truck ot and go across a scale)
I'm planning on making the bed dump in the future so that will be atleast another 400-500lbs

Now I need at least a 10ft bed, I like the fold down side of my c bed, I need to move 5x10 sheets of steel and plywood semi frequently.

My small skid steer is 9ft and a few inches long and I use it at my camp over the summer for clearing brush, logs, and need to dig in a new berm for my shooting range.
I transport the skid steer in the bed of the deuce because I dont have trailer big enough for it. And if I leave it on my property my wonderful neighbors will steal it
probably before I even get home, its a hour drive, thats how long it took for them to try to steal my lawn tractor, when I looked at my trail camera, well they tried to anyway....
(they stole a 53' dry van previously I had up there as a shed, how they hauled it down narrow ATV trail I'll never know)

Now the questions, that I know of right now, I'll probably have more soon.

The Hiab need a hydraulic pump that pushes about 30lpm of oil at 18mpa or in freedom units 2600psi at 8gpm
.
Should I see if I can find a transmission pto for the spicer transmission? Use a belt powered pump?
or should I look for a high power 24v hydraulic pump? (I have a low GPM 24v unit to test with)
Or should I go over to harbor freight and get a small gas engine or find a small diesel engine on craigslist and make a self contained power pack?

I like the idea of not having the engine running to use the crane which I would need for the pto pump.
The electric pump would be semi quite,( noise while working drive me nuts) and I not need a separate fuel tank,
but it would have a high amp draw if I can even find a pump with the right flow and pressure.
Now I would also when I do the dump bed not need to start a engine to dump the bed.

Does anybody know of application for a high pressure/flow 24v hydraulic pump?

But I am adding a diesel powered cab heater which will need a separate diesel tank so its not to much of a down side.

Does anybody have a small 12ish horse power diesel engine they don't need?
Do you guys think one of those gov surplus yamar diesels from a MEP generator would work if I go that way for the pump?

Since its a drop side bed, where would you guys make the cuts to remove 24"? the front or the rear?
I will be making this a dump bed sooner or later, so I'm guessing the front?
But is do have some damage to the rear of the bed from mounting the last crane so I could cut that way.

Anyway here are some pictures since there worth more than words.
The truck, installing the first crane, and testing it, moving my little milling machine, moving my big milling machine, and the hiab I want to install.
 

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cattlerepairman

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Wow, quite the list of to-do items! Having quite some experience working with folding cranes, I would comment that the tandem axle setup adds stability to the rig. It is underslung weight and gives the truck a bigger footprint on the ground.

Hydraulic power packs with a gas or diesel engine are readily available. You would be able to run crane and dump from it, with a valve to switch between the two. You would size it for the largest demand, probably the crane, probably at least 12-15 gpm and 2250 psi (but look up what the Hiab requires).

The challenge is where to put the power pack, so it is not in the way.

As for cutting the dropside bed:
https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/chopped-ha-dropside-mounted-pics.13737/




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DB556

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Wow, quite the list of to-do items! Having quite some experience working with folding cranes, I would comment that the tandem axle setup adds stability to the rig. It is underslung weight and gives the truck a bigger footprint on the ground.

Hydraulic power packs with a gas or diesel engine are readily available. You would be able to run crane and dump from it, with a valve to switch between the two. You would size it for the largest demand, probably the crane, probably at least 12-15 gpm and 2250 psi (but look up what the Hiab requires).

The challenge is where to put the power pack, so it is not in the way.

As for cutting the dropside bed:
https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/chopped-ha-dropside-mounted-pics.13737/




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Well I just got the crane. It needs more hydraulic lines replace than I would have liked, but I got it for $800 instead of $1300 so that was good.
But that was a day. I get there later than I wanted. and the crane is buried in the back of the guys supply yard so he gets out his baby track loader (makes me want to get one!) and he cuts me a road through his dirt/mulch pile so I can back up my ATV trailer with my jeep wrangler which I driving today since I still need to put a new wheel cylinder on the deuce. Thank goodness I took the low deck trailer! We would have never go it up and into the deuce

Well he brings over his log truck over and uses its knuckle boom to pick it up, just as we get it half way onto the trailer a hydraulic line on the crane blows!
Oil everywhere! So we have to use the track dingo loader, prybar and comalong to hush/pull it onto the trailer.

I just got it into the back of the deuce with my current crane which was a close thing which required some help from a comalong or two.

Now its time to replace a bunch of hydraulic lines, and while looking at the crane it has two extra unused hydraulic valves on the block! (probably for rotation and jaws) but I might be able to use one of those valves for the dump bed and maybe something else? maybe hydraulic controlled drop sides? hydraulic bed winch? Who knows there are so many options!

When I was searching so many thread on bobbed deuces, why I didn't see that one I'll never know. That looks exactly like what I want to do! A rear cut at the tail gate it is. I already have bed damage and broken welds there.

I see the reasoning for keeping it dual axle, but like the 4x4 idea and I'm already too far along parts wise, and I need to be able to hold some payload mainly my skid steer at (2800lbs) with my weight being ~13000lbs(deuce) + 2200lbs(crane)+2900(skid steer) = 18000lbs not including driver and since I had it titled at 18000lbs things have to go, so it I drop it to 4x4 and can shave off the 1800 from my 13000ish empty weight plus 2200lbs for the knuckle boom, I'm estimating ill be at 13400 which I'll round up to 14000 with the knuckle boom and some tool etc so I'll run in at 16900 lbs so I can carry an extra tank of gas, chainsaw and a beer maybe two but a six pack might put me over weight again :)

I should have titled it at 23000lbs for the full highway rating but I was being stupid thinking about registration cost, Now if I need more support once I go 4x4, I have a set of 6000lb trailer jacks that can make a set of manual extension out riggers for more support for the rear.
Kind of like this unimog with the same crane.

And once I go 4x4 I should have room under the bed on the passanger side next to the fuel tank for the engine powered power pack,
On the drive side I'll put my tool box I usually keep in the bed. So I'll only need to make a mount for the 395/85R20 spare so I can reclaim some bed space.

The Haib need 8gpm @2600psi so I'll size the pump and engine for that,
Though I'll have to make sure the engine I get is electric start/auto choke so I can start if from the cab.

For the time being I think I'll run the crane off the 24v electric pump I have since the pressure is correct even though the GPM is something like .75-1gpm it will be slow but will 'work' aleast for checking for leaks and it will allow me to use the crane to help me cut the bed.

Now to make a gantry crane help me move the bed back so I can trim and weld the rear and position the knuckle boom so I can use the new crane to move back the bed back.
 

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gimpyrobb

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Seems we aren't required to have a location posted anymore, hmmm.

I think your best bet would be a pto driven pump but seeing as you have the electric, I'd run that till you find the pto version.
 

cattlerepairman

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Depending on how often you anticipate to use the dump, you could consider hinging the bed and using the crane to lift and dump it. Attach a ring and braces to the front that the crane hooks into. Works fine for the occasional single load that is not crazy heavy and would save weight.
Clearly, you do not want to do that for 25 loads per day.

With the hydraulic pump, GPM translates into crane speed, PSI translate into force. You will be ok running low GPM for testing purposes. At 1 GPM it...will.........be................................slooooooooow.
2600 PSI seem a tad high; I guess the cranes I worked with were "de-tuned" slightly in the interest of service life.

I also think that, if you can get the weight rating up and keep it a 6x6 it would be better for the use you have in mind. You will be able to sell all the parts for the 4x4 conversion; people seem to do these all the time.
 

DB556

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Keeping it 6x6 would mean getting another M35a3 wheel ($250) and another MVT 395 tire($75), another set of discs($164 each) and calipers($189 each) plus a second set of mounts.

I haven't gotten the disc brake caliper mounts yet, or know who makes them still but I'm sure there not cheap, I think blackrockfab makes them, I'll have to check.

If I go to 23000lbs GVRW which is class 8 I'll have to have the title redone which was a pain the first time probably going to cost around $300-400 out the door, and it takes me from $397 to $560 per year for registration and I don't what to know what my increase in insurance cost would be, statefarm took forever to insure it last time.

So to keep it 6x6 using approximate cost I'll be about $1500 in parts not including the increased insurance costs, and whatever the cost to re-title it would be.

Plus I would need to find a new mechanic to inspect it since the garage I use only goes up to class 7.
And I don't want to have to go though the calling a shop they say sure we inspect those, and then I get there and they say "thats a military truck we cant inspect those!" that I had to do last time.

So I really want to keep going forward with the 4x4.

As for the boom speed Haib specs a movement speed 0.75 meters a second at 30l/min, and 22 degrees per second slewing speed
So approximately 30 inches a second at 8gpm, with the 24 pump pushing 1gpm or 1/8 the flow I should be at 3.75" per second joint movement speed and 2.75 degrees per second so I'll be running at about 10 second per 36 inches of movement and 130 second for a full 360 spin instead of 16seconds

So very slow but It should work for testing.

I did find a 13hp electric start vertical shaft B&S engine that should fit my requirements when I was cleaning this weekend, now to dig up a pump since the crane already has a reservoir. I would prefer a diesel engine so I I'll keep looking for a little bit. But I could make a mount for two jerry cans behind the cab one of road diesel for the diesel cab heater/emergency fuel, and another on the other side for the gas power pack fuel/'I forgot the gas can for the lawn mower again' supply.
I would just need to put in bungs and quick disconnects on the cans somewhere.
 
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DB556

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I use an electric forklift pump super cheap but even in my 925 I have to keep it running with 4 batteries and your gonna need outriggers View attachment 788646View attachment 788645


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Your truck looks about two steps up on both the crane and the truck!
I have my old crane in the same spot. But I cant lift my jeep TJ with my current crane!

I run my current crane on a 1.5gpm 12v power pack I got from northern tool a while on a single group 31 that charges off my 12v alternator when the truck is on.

Now thinking about the 24v power back I reseached it a bit more and I have a 3.4gpm unit, and monarch makes a unit that can run up to 8gpm on 24v it does run 300amps at max flow/pressure so that is a down side.
 

DB556

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Well I did some math today, and I'll have to cut the bed down 36" to 9 feet for it to look right but if I take but the bucket off the skid steer it will fit easy and I'll have room along the side to hold it and some gear so I'll have to live with a 9ft bed.

Now the crane is only ~23" deep so If I leave a 26" space for some room for wrenching (the room needed to swing the boom is only 480mm so about 19 inches. I can cut down the bed and move it forward about 10" to a foot", so I can do a little trim to the end of the frame to allow more room for my dump bed hardware.

Hopefully all the valves are good on the crane, if not, I do have a wireless crane remote I got for the small crane and I have five 24v solenoid valves and manifold blocks, that I got for another crane project that are siting on the shelf.

Once I pull the mid axle I'll have 48" on both sides, one side for my under bed tool box and the other for a 24v forklift hydraulic pump for short runs and for a 12hp gas engine/pump for longer run times. I know it would be a pain to run the plumbing for both pumps but I often use my crane to lift small 1000lb parts and materials around when I have the truck parked. I should be able to fit in a extra set of 24v batteries for more run time, I also found a 150amp leece neville bus alternator I got for another project when I was digging around the basement this morning, so nice charging upgrade.

Once the crane is on the frame it will be about 19" taller than the cab or about 9 feet and some inches from the ground so not to bad it will be higher once I get the 395 tires on but only a few more inches.

Now to find some 16-18" pieces of 3/4" all thread and make some flanges to hold the crane to the frame along with a couple frame stiffeners/cross members

And to design and build a large gantry crane to lift the bed/frame up for the axle pull, and to move the Hiab crane for install.
Atleast I have the little crane to help me start building that.

Got around to unboxing the rotors time to clean up the insides and to turn down the hubs a few thousands.

Pictures are worth some wordsView attachment Untitled-1.jpg
 

DB556

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I'm thinking about the bolt to attach the crane to the frame, I can either use four 5/8" grade 5 square u-bolts or I can get 3/4" grade B7 all thread and use some 1/2 or 5/8" plate to top and bottom brackets. The ubolts would be easier, but the 3/4" B7 rod is stronger but more work and more nuts and lock washers.
 

USAFSS-ColdWarrior

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I'm thinking about the bolt to attach the crane to the frame, I can either use four 5/8" grade 5 square u-bolts or I can get 3/4" grade B7 all thread and use some 1/2 or 5/8" plate to top and bottom brackets. The ubolts would be easier, but the 3/4" B7 rod is stronger but more work and more nuts and lock washers.
General rule of thumb...
The UNthreaded portion or "SHANK" of any connecting hardware (bolt, pin, shaft) SHOULD fully engage (extend through) the load-bearing bore of the mount, frame, plates, etc. for the full and less concentrated loading of the all-thread wherein ONLY the "points" of the thread would contact the inside of the bore. Additionally, the "grooves" of the all-thread could act as "perforations" or "scoring" of the shaft (in this case threaded rod) and potentially be the "shear point" when those side-stresses are imposed on the component parts. If the all-thread does not suffer a shear failure, it will nonetheless eventually score the inside of the bore, possibly distorting everything and making disassembly a whole new headache.

While the material specs of Grade 5 vs B7 and indeed different, you are also considering compromising the load or stress bearing physical characteristics of your hardware selections.

I do not currently have easy access to my old design references, but I assure you, those threads on the all-thread may induce a catastrophic failure you really do not want to experience.
 

DB556

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I'll go with the 5/8" u-bolts for now, I had my doubts about the all thread. If I ever experience any creep on them I'll think about another mounting solution.
 

DB556

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Looking at my 24v hydraulic pump I had it had some problems mainly being it had SAE #4 and #6 fittings way to small, so I got a new 24v hydraulic pump in it can run 5gpm, and my hydro-max master cylinder came in. Now to block off the blown wheel cylinder and limp it back to my drive way to get some work done.

For lifting the crane and bed I'm thinking of making a gantry crane out of 12foot 2"x12"s two or three bolted together for the main beam and a couple on either side with some 4x4 for legs, think it would hold up the weight of the 2100 crane? looking at load calculation sheets for a spruce 2x12 on a 12ft span it can support 2100 lbs for a deflection of .3"20200203-192840.jpg
 

8madjack

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Looking at my 24v hydraulic pump I had it had some problems mainly being it had SAE #4 and #6 fittings way to small, so I got a new 24v hydraulic pump in it can run 5gpm, and my hydro-max master cylinder came in. Now to block off the blown wheel cylinder and limp it back to my drive way to get some work done.

For lifting the crane and bed I'm thinking of making a gantry crane out of 12foot 2"x12"s two or three bolted together for the main beam and a couple on either side with some 4x4 for legs, think it would hold up the weight of the 2100 crane? looking at load calculation sheets for a spruce 2x12 on a 12ft span it can support 2100 lbs for a deflection of .3"View attachment 789747
Even if it lifts the weight statically, the weight moving around, say by getting bumped becomes dynamic, I would think it a bit sketchy and if it lets go anything under it's getting crushed! At least the way I picture it trying to get the crane high enough to get over the truck which is pretty high. I know my steel Gantry won't lift my Crane High Enough, I figured I would rent one of those off-road forklifts when I get ready to install it.
 

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DB556

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Even if it lifts the weight statically, the weight moving around, say by getting bumped becomes dynamic, I would think it a bit sketchy and if it lets go anything under it's getting crushed! At least the way I picture it trying to get the crane high enough to get over the truck which is pretty high. I know my steel Gantry won't lift my Crane High Enough, I figured I would rent one of those off-road forklifts when I get ready to install it.
Those grove cranes from the hemmt are sweet! and probably heavier than this Hiab at 2100lbs, wish I could get a forklift and the truck in my driveway but a gantry is what I can fit, my skid steer is to small to lift the bed, thought I can probably lift the crane enough to move it around once I get it off the truck, then I can work on the crane, and have a empty truck bed to go get parts and move some tote of oil for filtering.

As for the brakes, I'm thinking I'll try to keep the most of the stock linkages and brackets that I can I know I'll have to adjust the angles on the arm on the stock pedal for the travel of this new master but I'll see what I get one I get the airpack and stock master out of the way.
 

gentrysgarage

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To help those creative juices flow, I already have the parts on the table to peruse!
Here's the pic from last nigh (sorry not the best lighting so a little fuzzy) but right off the bat the mounting is smaller for the M35 master.
 

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8madjack

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Those grove cranes from the hemmt are sweet! and probably heavier than this Hiab at 2100lbs, wish I could get a forklift and the truck in my driveway but a gantry is what I can fit, my skid steer is to small to lift the bed, thought I can probably lift the crane enough to move it around once I get it off the truck, then I can work on the crane, and have a empty truck bed to go get parts and move some tote of oil for filtering.

As for the brakes, I'm thinking I'll try to keep the most of the stock linkages and brackets that I can I know I'll have to adjust the angles on the arm on the stock pedal for the travel of this new master but I'll see what I get one I get the airpack and stock master out of the way.
This one is off a m1084 MTV 5 ton, they look similar, according to my research it's about 3700 lbs.
 
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