Florida MV Insurance and RV Status

[oldMan99]

OK, I am talking specifically about registration and insurance in Florida.

I have just finished reading the applicable Florida regulations for converting a vehicle previously registered as something other than an RV into an RV. It has a section specifically dealing with "Questions and Answers Concerning Changing a Heavy Truck or Truck Tractor to a Recreational Vehicle"

It starts on page 6: http://www3.flhsmv.gov/dmv/Proc/TL/TL-13.PDF

Basically it very clearly states that a 5th wheel hitch is not allowed and that if one is present the vehicle must be registered as a commercial vehicle. This of course means expensive tags, insurance, log books... blah, blah blah..

My intent was/(is?) to get a 916/920 and add a sleeper unit and then register it as a RV to haul a M146 or M129 trailer that has been built into a RV. Of course towing this kind of trailer is going to be difficult without a 5th wheel hitch and I really don't want to try to haul a 30' trailer on a bumper hitch. (In fact, I have somebody going to look at a 920 for me next week, and have located a very nice M129 locally...) My initial thought was to build the 920/916 into a "straight frame" RV about the size of a Prevost bus RV. I think state registration for that would be no problem as the regulation shows a picture of exactly that (but using a civilian tractor) and says it is OK. It was with further discussion and thought that I figured the truck/trailer RV combo would be more versatile and allow more maneuverability in off pavement areas.

I know there are many people doing just what I want to do and some of them are here in Florida.

I may have to default to something like a M820 or stretched 920/916 as in th e original plan since the regulations there seem to be something that can be met but for several reasons I would like to stick to the truck/trailer plan if I can.

On the insurance front, I went to the local state farm office with a picture of the 920. After several phone calls to the home office and faxing the picture, i was told no way would they insure it as anything other than commercial no matter how it was registered and if i put a sleeper on they would not insure it at all because they do not insure "Modified vehicles". I specifically went to state farm first because I read several posts here on SS that they (sf) were willing to write for MV's. Of course the "No modified" leaves a stretched 902/916 out as well.

I am slightly familiarly with the historic and collector avenues. If at all possible I would like to avoid these as they normally have all sorts of restrictions on storage, mileage, use and so forth.

So here are the questions: FLORIDA PEOPLE, how do you register the "18 wheeler" trucks? How do you register M109's, M820's and so forth?

How/who insures them - IN FLORIDA? If you post an answer to that one I'll probably end up PM'ing you to get your agents contact info and just deal with them since they obviously have a clue.

NOTE: One thing I noted while reading the Florida regulations is that if you bring in a vehicle registered as a RV from another state, Florida will simply duplicate whatever way the last state had it registered. Hum... Soni had mentioned that New Mexico registers the vehicle based on how you intend to use it. I noticed his license plate even has "RV" as part of the numbers. Anybody from New Mexico have solid info on how I could register my vehicle there and then transfer it here to FL? Would I simply need a NM address to use or do I have to have my driver license and residence there as well? (It took me 2 days and several phone calls to find the correct Florida documentation on line, does anybody have a www link for the NM info?) I suppose I could have somebody there do the initial reg and then "Buy" it from them if I had to but even still, the Florida insurance question remains....

OK Florida people, (And New Mexico people!) I need your help and I'm standing by....

And as always... THANKS IN ADVANCE!

 

[Ruppster]

Two things. One, just because you may have truck registration it does not mean a log book is mandatory. A log book and USDOT number are only required if you are for hire. Two, the NM idea would not do you any good since Florida would not honor it as an RV anyhow. So you would be wasting your time. I sent you an email about the time you posted this question. In it I suggested Gulfway Ins. as they cover stuff like this. And while the State Farm guy was correct about it being a "commercial policy" sometimes the rates can be pretty low based on use. I's kind of a non-commercial commercial policy. I had them for insurance when I had my first truck and trailer in VA and while it was a "commercial policy" it was pretty cheap since I wasn't doing all the "commercial" kind of work (less of a liability). I think it was something like $700 a year (but that was several years ago). So don't let the term "commercial policy" scare you. All that matters is how much it costs.

The biggest problem you may have is as an RV you have a shorter allowance for overall length. So you need to look at what all you want to be able to haul. Also, I mentioned in my email one last possibility, use a pintle hitch since it allows more tongue weight then a normal ball hitch.


Ruppster

 

[Tow4]

State Farm would not insure my M818 even though I have my M35 insured with them.

I went with Gulfway. Gulfway will also insure trailers. Whatever you do, make sure you read the policy. What is in writing is what you have.

I have my M35 tagged permanent antique. I'm doing the M818 the same.

 

[A/C Cages]

Sometimes it dont pay to live in Backazzwards Florida until you notice that we are the only state with no snow it in right now.

 

[oldMan99]

Two things. One, just because you may have truck registration it does not mean a log book is mandatory. A log book and USDOT number are only required if you are for hire.

This may be correct, however, as a commercial registered truck I would still have to pull into every weight station and be subject to questioning and harassment by the scale cop who thinks I should have books, fuel stamps, and all that other stuff.

EDITED TO ADD: I just looked up the annual license plate fee... A M916 or 920 weighs in at 30,000lbs (916 a tad less) my RV trailer will weight about 20-25,000 pounds for a potential total of 55,000 pounds.

The fee for a RV weighing 4,500 pounds and over: $72.40 annually ($6.03/month).

The fee for a truck (Commercial or otherwise) 44,000 to 54,999 pounds is $951.15 annually ($79.26/month). The nest step up from that is $1,115.15 ($92.93/month).

For anybody interested, here is the chart: http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/forms/BTR/83140.pdf

Two, the NM idea would not do you any good since Florida would not honor it as an RV anyhow. So you would be wasting your time.

You must have missed this in the regs from the above link: Title 13, Section "E", Paragraph 4, Note "C" "A motor home and van conversion previously titled in another state will be titled in Florida using the same description of the vehicle as shown on the out-of-state certificate of title."

I sent you an email about the time you posted this question. In it I suggested Gulfway Ins. as they cover stuff like this.

I believe you are correct, that company had slipped my mind. I'll put them on the list to call in the morning!

And while the State Farm guy was correct about it being a "commercial policy" sometimes the rates can be pretty low based on use. I's kind of a non-commercial commercial policy. I had them for insurance when I had my first truck and trailer in VA and while it was a "commercial policy" it was pretty cheap since I wasn't doing all the "commercial" kind of work (less of a liability). I think it was something like $700 a year (but that was several years ago). So don't let the term "commercial policy" scare you. All that matters is how much it costs.

I did ask about pricing and was told to expect $700-1200 per 6 months.

The biggest problem you may have is as an RV you have a shorter allowance for overall length. So you need to look at what all you want to be able to haul.

I think I'll be ok on that aspect since if I do build the straight RV I don't plan to haul a very big trailer, certainly not as long as those guys do in their Prevost buses.

Also, I mentioned in my email one last possibility, use a pintle hitch since it allows more tongue weight then a normal ball hitch.

Yeah, I thought about that, but doing that you loose one of the greatest advantages of moving from the straight RV to the truck/trailer concept and that is the superior maneuverability of the 5th wheel design. You also loose a lot of the versatility of the vehicle. I can pull a 45' flat bed to haul 2 or 3 mud trucks to the play ground if it is a goosneck or 5th wheel but not on a pintle.

Also, while the bumper/pintle pull is slightly more maneuverable than a long straight RV, the 5th wheel is vastly superior to the bumper/pintle and is more stable and less subject to sway, especially in high cross winds or emergency maneuvers.

So that still leaves the question, how do the guys in Florida driving former commercial or military 5th wheel trucks and hauling PRIVATE semi trailers and 5th wheel RV's get their trucks registered as RV's??

 

[televisionman007]

F=forget
L-living
O=on
R=retirment
I=in
D=dis
A=area
Thats all i got to say

 

[Green_gator]

My 109 is covered by Haggerty (collector insurance) and that limits the use. Not a problem as the permanent antique tag also limits use. I figure that it is a fair trade as it was $65 one time to register a vehicle for life. I use the 109 infrequently and for the types of things that are okay under both insurance and registration. Have thought of going the RV way so I will watch this thread to see what you find. Interesting part is it would seem that the expansible vans like the 820 series on the five ton bodies automatically qualify as they have 110 electric. Maybe the 109 box on an 818 tractor and register it as an RV then no issue with CDL.

 

[oldMan99]

State Farm would not insure my M818 even though I have my M35 insured with them.

I went with Gulfway. Gulfway will also insure trailers. Whatever you do, make sure you read the policy. What is in writing is what you have.

I have my M35 tagged permanent antique. I'm doing the M818 the same.

The 818 would be in the same category as the 920/916, so... If you tag it as antique does that relieve you of the CDL requirement? And the books, fuel stamps and all that other "Commercial truck" stuff? If so, I have the following questions:

How old does it have to be to qualify?

Do you have a link to the state page where it tell you that your exempt from the "Commercial truck stuff"?

As just noted, I'll be calling Gulfway in the AM. Is there something specific your referring to look for when reading it? Something that should or should not be there? Or was that just the standard, be sure you know what your getting disclaimer?

EDITED TO ADD: I just found this on the state website about antique registration:

(Pick one)

1: The vehicle described above is a “Street Rod” which is a modified motor vehicle manufactured prior to 1949. The vehicle meets state equipment and safety requirements that were in effect in this state as a condition of sale in the year listed as the model year on the certificate of title. The vehicle will only be used for exhibition and not for general transportation.
** Does not qualify

2: The vehicle described above is a “Custom Vehicle” which is a modified motor vehicle manufactured after 1948 and is 25 years old or older and has been altered from the manufacturer’s original design or has a body constructed from nonoriginal materials. The vehicle meets state equipment and safety requirements that were in effect in this state as a condition of sale in the year listed as the model year on the certificate of title. The vehicle will only be used for exhibition and not for general transportation.
** Yes, older, yes modified, BUT I plan to actually use the RV as an RV, so, does not qualify.

3: The vehicle described above is a “Horseless Carriage” which is an automobile, truck or motorcycle weighing 5,000 pounds or less, for private use, manufactured in 1945 or earlier. The license plate is permanent and valid for use without renewal as long as the vehicle is owned by the same owner/registrant.
** Not x 2

4: The vehicle described above is a Firefighting apparatus, other historical motor vehicle or former military vehicle 30 years old or older, used only in exhibitions, parades or public displays.
** Yes over 30 years, yes former military vehicle, but again, I plan to use the vehicle so it does not qualify. I wonder if displaying it in the woods in the middle of nowhere counts?

 

[Tow4]

Here you go.

The 818 would be in the same category as the 920/916, so... If you tag it as antique does that relieve you of the CDL requirement? And the books, fuel stamps and all that other "Commercial truck" stuff? If so, I have the following questions:

CDL required only above 26,000 lbs as I understand it. If you pull a trailer you need a CDL unless it's an RV.

How old does it have to be to qualify?

Go to FL DMV website and get proceedure RS-25. Ex-millitary vehicles of any age qualify.

Do you have a link to the state page where it tell you that your exempt from the "Commercial truck stuff"?

Don't know.

As just noted, I'll be calling Gulfway in the AM. Is there something specific your referring to look for when reading it? Something that should or should not be there? Or was that just the standard, be sure you know what your getting disclaimer?

You should always read contracts.

 

[oldMan99]

Here you go.

While researching Florida RS 25 I did not find anything to contradict the 30 year age requirement but I did find this tidbit that although not directly applicable to this conversation I thought was interesting:

Section 320.086, Florida Statutes, is amended to allow the issuance of special license plates for former military vehicles and to exempt those vehicles from license plate display requirements when used in parades, exhibitions or public display. The law also requires the plate and registration certificate to be in the vehicle and available for inspection by law enforcement.

I guess that is useful if your going for that ultimate in authenticity look.

Is that "Special license plate" the normal "Antique" plate or is there one that actually says "Military Vehicle"?

(10 minutes later....)

Just searched the Florida DMV and the only mention of "Military license plates" I could find is for current/former Mil members to have a special plate which is really nice but has nothing to do with "special license plates for former military vehicles".

For those that qualify and are interested copy/paste from the site:

FAQs on Personalized and Military License Plates

How do I purchase a military license plate?

These license plates are issued to individuals who meet a certain criteria. For example, to be eligible for a Medal of Honor license plate, the individual must submit proof from the U.S. Government that they were awarded the Medal of Honor. All military license plates, except Medal of Honor, are available at your local tax collector's office. Medal of Honor applications and renewals must be sent to:

Division of Motor Vehicles
Neil Kirkman Building
Direct Mail MS72
Tallahassee, FL 32399-0500

Military license plates can be issued for use only on the following type vehicles:

Automobile (Private or Lease).
Lightweight trucks for private use.
Motor home or truck camper which are not "for hire" or "commercial" use.
Heavy trucks with a net weight 7,999 lbs. or less.

Available military license plates:
National Guard
U.S. Reserve
Operation Enduring Freedom
Operation Iraqi Freedom
U.S. Paratrooper
Pearl Harbor Survivor
Ex-Prisoner of War
Purple Heart
Medal of Honor
Gold Star
Disabled Veteran
Disabled Veteran – Wheelchair Symbol
Disabled Veteran motorcycle
Paralyzed Vets of America
Paralyzed Vets of America motorcycle

Well that is really cool but what do the plates look like??? http://www.flhsmv.gov/html/tagbrochure.pdf
This appears to be a listing of all plates available in 2010, I did not see a "Military Vehicle" plate shown.

More details and better pictures of the Military Veterans plates:
http://www.flhsmv.gov/specialtytags/miltags.html


Thank you Veterans. Thank you very much.

 

[Ruppster]

This may be correct, however, as a commercial registered truck I would still have to pull into every weight station and be subject to questioning and harassment by the scale cop who thinks I should have books, fuel stamps, and all that other stuff.

While yes, you will have to pull in to the scales they may stop you every now and then to ask. A lot of scales in Florida are the weigh in motion type and even when I had out of state tags 9 times out of 10 I got the green arrow to return to the highway. When I got the red arrow to stop it was for random log book checks. As soon as I told them I was not for hire and it was my own stuff they told me I was free to leave as I did not need a log book. When I came back to Florida with Aalska plates the only thing they grilled me about was my IRP/IFTA permits. If you are worried about it then be sure to carry a copy of the regulations that cover DOT numbers and inspections. That should be one of the state statutes on the Florida web site. You might have to ask a scale official for the statute number that covers their requirements.

You must have missed this in the regs from the above link: Title 13, Section "E", Paragraph 4, Note "C" "A motor home and van conversion previously titled in another state will be titled in Florida using the same description of the vehicle as shown on the out-of-state certificate of title."

That's the catch. If they won't accept a toterhome as an RV for registration it sounds like they won't recognize it as such even if another state did. The trick with the quote you give above is about "motor homes". Since Florida will not recognize a toterhome as a "motor home" in the first place then I would say Note C would not apply in your case. But I'm not a lawyer, that's just my .

I did ask about pricing and was told to expect $700-1200 per 6 months.

That's if you get tags for something like 80,000 pounds (i.e. full fledged IRP commercial plates). And this has nothing to do with GVWR. When you get heavy use truck tags they ask for GVW. This is how much weight you want to be able to haul across the scales. This is the combined weight of both the truck and trailer. But if the trailer is an RV the trailer weight is moot. So all you really need is enough weight for just the truck itself so you will be legal when not pulling an RV trailer. Plus you do not need to get tags with a weight that equals the truck's GVWR. When DMV asks for the truck's GVW they don't mean GVWR, just how much weight do you want on your tag. An email I sent you earlier had a link to the Hillsborough tax collector. One of the pages on that link covers registration fees and gives a breakdown based on weight. The more weight the more the tag costs. As I mentioned a truck tag for 35,000 pounds was something like $400. I plan on getting tags for 43,999 pounds for my International semi truck and the price is about $450. I may bump that up to 54,999 pounds but I would need to increase my liability insurance from $100,000 to $300,000. What the guy said on the phone assumed you wanted 80,000 pound plates.

So that still leaves the question, how do the guys in Florida driving former commercial or military 5th wheel trucks and hauling PRIVATE semi trailers and 5th wheel RV's get their trucks registered as RV's??

If it's a former civilian commercial truck you're out of luck unless it's converted to a full motorhome with no fifth wheel. An ex-military truck can get permanent antique plates with no weight restrictions but you can only haul things to and from things like shows, meetings, and parades. Not for pleasure driving. If you want to be able to go where ever you want with no restrictions then it looks like getting regular tags for the truck and pulling an RV trailer (doesn't matter if it is a fifth wheel/gooseneck type or bumper pull trailer) would be your best option.



Ruppster

 

[Ruppster]

I use the 109 infrequently and for the types of things that are okay under both insurance and registration. Have thought of going the RV way so I will watch this thread to see what you find. Interesting part is it would seem that the expansible vans like the 820 series on the five ton bodies automatically qualify as they have 110 electric. Maybe the 109 box on an 818 tractor and register it as an RV then no issue with CDL.

In the case of a shop van it is easily converted to an RV and Florida will accept it. The key issue the OP is having is he wants to have something like a toterhome but Florida will not accept that as a "motor home" RV like the would a converted shop truck. As far as using the RV exemption from CDL requirements on an M818 all you have to do is pull an RV trailer and you're good to go.


Ruppster

 

[oldMan99]

In the case of a shop van it is easily converted to an RV and Florida will accept it. The key issue the OP is having is he wants to have something like a toterhome but Florida will not accept that as a "motor home" RV like they would a converted shop truck.

Exactly - And the whole issue seems to be that if it has a 5th wheel, no go. If it has a flat deck in the back, (Where the 5th wheel used to be) no problem. If it has a bumper hitch no problem. Just no 5th wheel allowed.

As far as using the RV exemption from CDL requirements on an M818 all you have to do is pull an RV trailer and you're good to go.


Ruppster

I have heard that but still have not been able to find it in official writing anyplace. I have also been told that if the truck has a box for cargo or a flat bed for cargo the CDL is exempt but I can't find that either.

Anybody have a link???

 

[Ruppster]

Originally Posted by oldMan99
The 818 would be in the same category as the 920/916, so... If you tag it as antique does that relieve you of the CDL requirement? And the books, fuel stamps and all that other "Commercial truck" stuff? If so, I have the following questions:

CDL required only above 26,000 lbs as I understand it. If you pull a trailer you need a CDL unless it's an RV.

Florida is weird when it comes to what does/does not need a CDL. A cargo truck, regardless of GVWR, that carries cargo directly on its chassis does not need a CDL if not for hire/profit. But a semi tractor that is built for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer requires at least a Class B CDL (Florida does not have a non- commercial Class A or B license). There is no CDL exemption for the semi truck based on the type of registration as all the care about in this case is the actual GVWR of the chassis. So an M818 or M920 with permanent antique plates would still need a Class B CDL regardless of use. The only exemption from the CDL requirement would be if you are pulling an RV trailer (as you mentioned). And if you want to use the M818/M920 to pull a trailer over 10,000 pounds GVWR then you need to step up to a Class A CDL (unless said trailer is an RV).

The sad part is if a 5 ton 6x6 only has a fifth wheel hitch on the back you can not drive it (even empty) without a Class B CDL in Florida. But if you replace the fifth wheel with a cargo box and load it as heavy as you want no CDL would be required (even at the truck's full GVWR).

The trick is if you have a semi truck with a short flatbed or cargo box between the cab and the fifth wheel. In this case it can do both, carry cargo on its own chassis and pull a trailer. Since it is not built just for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer then no CDL is needed (again, as long as you are not for profit). A toterhome falls in to this category since it can serve as an RV with or without a trailer (i.e. it does not have the sole purpose of hauling a trailer). So a CDL is not needed, even with a trailer.


Ruppster

 

[Ruppster]

I have heard that but still have not been able to find it in official writing anyplace. I have also been told that if the truck has a box for cargo or a flat bed for cargo the CDL is exempt but I can't find that either.

Anybody have a link???

For the cargo box versus fifth wheel CDL issue that is right from Florida's DMV web site. Also listed in Florida's trucking handbook about CDL requirements. I will have to get back with a link to that.

For the RV combo issue that is standard for a truck with an RV trailer to be classed as an RV set. Not sure if I have seen that in writing or not. I do know that I have talked about this issue with DOT people all across the U.S. and every single one agreed that a semi truck pulling an RV was classed as an RV while the trailer was attached (but as soon as you dropped the trailer CDL rules kicked in). Again, this is only if you are not for profit.


Ruppster

 

[oldMan99]

Florida is weird when it comes to what does/does not need a CDL. A cargo truck, regardless of GVWR, that carries cargo directly on its chassis does not need a CDL if not for hire/profit. But a semi tractor that is built for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer requires at least a Class B CDL (Florida does not have a non- commercial Class A or B license). There is no CDL exemption for the semi truck based on the type of registration as all the care about in this case is the actual GVWR of the chassis. So an M818 or M920 with permanent antique plates would still need a Class B CDL regardless of use. The only exemption from the CDL requirement would be if you are pulling an RV trailer (as you mentioned). And if you want to use the M818/M920 to pull a trailer over 10,000 pounds GVWR then you need to step up to a Class A CDL (unless said trailer is an RV).

The sad part is if a 5 ton 6x6 only has a fifth wheel hitch on the back you can not drive it (even empty) without a Class B CDL in Florida. But if you replace the fifth wheel with a cargo box and load it as heavy as you want no CDL would be required (even at the truck's full GVWR).

The trick is if you have a semi truck with a short flatbed or cargo box between the cab and the fifth wheel. In this case it can do both, carry cargo on its own chassis and pull a trailer. Since it is not built just for the sole purpose of pulling a trailer then no CDL is needed (again, as long as you are not for profit). A toterhome falls in to this category since it can serve as an RV with or without a trailer (i.e. it does not have the sole purpose of hauling a trailer). So a CDL is not needed, even with a trailer.


Ruppster

But where can I find that in writing? I have looked. My search foo is weak.

For the cargo box versus fifth wheel CDL issue that is right from Florida's DMV web site. Also listed in Florida's trucking handbook about CDL requirements. I will have to get back with a link to that.

For the RV combo issue that is standard for a truck with an RV trailer to be classed as an RV set. Not sure if I have seen that in writing or not. I do know that I have talked about this issue with DOT people all across the U.S. and every single one agreed that a semi truck pulling an RV was classed as an RV while the trailer was attached (but as soon as you dropped the trailer CDL rules kicked in). Again, this is only if you are not for profit.


Ruppster

Yeah, if you can find a link that page in the CDL book that would be greatly appreciated.

Now, we have another issue/problem... It seems the only classifications is either RV or commercial, or am I missing something?

On the RV combo issue, assuming we can find that in writing to verify it, if I can't get it registered as something other than commercial so that I do not need a CDL, then I have a useless truck since every time it needs service I have to hire a CDL driver to take it and bring it back for me. And If I have a problem when on the road and need to drop the trailer and go fetch parts in the truck, I can not legally do that either. That is about screwed up. There must be a better way... What is it?

 

[A/C Cages]

Good thing I already have a Class A CDL. I would have to be going thru these hassles too soon.

 

[oldMan99]

Good thing I already have a Class A CDL. I would have to be going thru these hassles too soon.

Well it is not just the CDL issue, it is the $100/month for the tags....

 

[A/C Cages]

Keep going back, try other offices. What how many different responces you get on asking the same question to a different person.
I did this when I had to license my Deuces.

 

[vinny-socom1]

OK I'm lost......I have an 818 I have Gulf way insurance it is a commercial policy, but the truck is tagged as a permanent antique. I was under the thought that if I was not in commerce I do not need a CDL.

I'm I right to understand that if my truck has a 5th wheel I should have a CDL?

P.S. I did remove the 5th wheel because I figured if I towed something it puts me over the 26,001lbs and requires a CDL.

It has a cut down cargo bed now.

Vinny