Insane home Water/meth injection...

[Heath_h49008]

Major Math Error Found!!!!


I was computing to 1000 degrees CENTIGRADE not FAHRENHEIT of output steam. Our 1000-1100 degree EGT goal is F. So, I need to adjust the total amount of cooling down by about 450 degrees of steam heat per cc of injected water. So minus 1400j heat energy absorbed per cc injected. or roughly 35%.

This should make the nozzle almost perfect...
It doesn't matter in actuality. That just means we aren't over-watering as much as I had suspected. So, it's actually good news. I'll post any other notes here as I review this and double check for errors.

Correct the scale of compensation to be from +100hp to +175hp equivalent of fuel burned.

 

[JOEDEUCE]

Hi everybody, cool to see you guys still working on water injection ideas/ research...

 

[PsycoBob]

Minor update, the flame-preheater on my dad's truck is 18mm plug, not 14mm. Second set of spark-plug/npt adapters on order. $15 oops.

I've got an adjustable pressure switch, 24v solenoid, Swage-lok 1/4" tubing fittings in 1/8" & 1/4" npt, several 1/4" mini ball-valves to manually shut off the water line from the tank. Soda keg & associated adapters/gaskets otw. Still need several feet of 1/4" air tubing to go from the barbed fittings on the tank's adapters to the air fitting in the cab & from the water outlet to the ball valve.

Current plumbing circuit- Cab air fitting w/shutoff (stock), 1/4" air hose to soda keg disconnect (ball-lock style), water soda-keg disconnect to short 1/4" tubing to ball valve shutoff, 24v valve, DOT 1/4" air-brake tubing to engine compartment, spark-plug adapter w/nozzle installed in intake elbow. 2 adapters ordered, in case I screw up tapping them, or to facilitate swapping nozzles for testing.

1/8" fitting on intake elbow tapped for gauge on dash, will be using a t-fitting on this line to feed pressure switch. Fuse in battery compartment feeds power to cab, dash-panel manual button & pressure switch.

When I drive the truck to the MVPA meeting tomorrow, I'll be paying close attention to egt & pressure so I can set the switch right. After everything's installed, I'll see about turning up the fuel a bit more.

 

[PsycoBob]

Looks like 9-10psi will be my current setpoint. I get 1000F somewhere around that pressure, at least in yesterday's weather/road conditions. The eBay seller I got the switch from offers to preset it for the pressure you want for another $1. Adjustment is by a small (5/64"?) allen wrench- Ill keep it handy the first couple of trips.

1/4" DOT tubing is real cheap stuff from napa- if you ask about it have them check to see what their 'in-stock' count is supposed to be. My local place figured out that the '50ft' instock allowance and '100ft' roll size meant they never got any automatically. They changed their numbers to make sure they have a roll of each size tubing on hand.

 

[Kohburn]

maybe I missed it - are you using the auburn digital pyrometer with it's "buzzer" feed to trigger the meth injection?

or is it triggered by boost pressure?

 

[rronning84]

I was planning yo use my auburn to trigger once I got a system laid out.

 

[PsycoBob]

Nothing yet- still waiting on parts. Keg should be here today, so I hope to have it running tomorrow.

Initial system will be triggered by boost pressure. As I already have a rubber hose run to a combination EGT/boost gauge, I'll just tee into that. I would like to upgrade to a controller later, triggered by EGT. The EGT system will likely be connected in parallel, as the boost trigger will work as a backup.

I have several 24v LED's on the way for another project- I'll likely use one to show that the solenoid is triggered. It'd be neat to use a bi-color red/green led on either side of the switch- one for 'ready' one for 'triggered.'

 

[Heath_h49008]

For initial testing a toggle switch would work.

I want to see the spray pattern on the nozzles at various pressures before they go in the trucks.

PsychBob, you're about a month ahead of me on your build. I can't wait to see pictures so I can steal mounting ideas.

 

[rronning84]

Would love to see these pics too when you start putting it together.

 

[PsycoBob]

Ok, I'll be taking some pics tomorrow, once I clean the excess junk out of the cab.

I got it all installed Wednesday, just before leaving for a camping trip on Thursday morning. Tested 3gph nozzle, no noticeable effect. 6gph nozzle was installed for a trip from Auburn, NY to the the Moose River recreation area, past Old Forge. 150miles by the route I took, with a dirt road in to the site was 10 miles @ 8-9mph. System probably didn't activate at all off-road. Trip back was slightly shorter, but a warmer day. Lots of big hills, not much gentle cruising. On-road speed probably averaged 45mph, depending on how insane some of the hills were.

I run straight WMO & I've had noticeably higher EGT's than the 50/50 WMO/Diesel mix I was using when I turned up the fuel. 80F day, long hill @ 2500rpm & I'd have to back off the pedal to avoid 1200F pre-turbo temps. With the system running, I was able to keep my foot buried with max 1100F on a 3+ minute long pull. Boost was 12psi @ 2500rpm @ full power, jumping to 14-15psi as soon as the system was switched on. EGT would drop over 100F a few seconds after boost tripped the switch, no matter if the EGT was 800 or 1100- with the system off, EGT would keep climbing.

My plumbing used a 1/4" DOT tube from the solenoid in the cab to the injector. The solenoid has a pretty tiny flow, so I suspect that 6ft long tube takes a second or two to pressurize, likely causing most of the delay in changing boost/temp. Probably for the best, rather than a sudden injection. Air pressure was about 70-75psi.

Might not be a bad idea to add a check valve in the air line- I had minor issues with water getting backfed. Didn't cause any real issue, but I'm not sure how far into the truck's system it might have gotten. Air-flow requirement for the system is minuscule.

I filled the system once during the trip up, refilling at camp. Total was probably 8-9 gallons. Trip back was a different story- I probably refilled that keg 4 times, with a gallon or so left in there each time. If you wanted a longer runtime, a second keg could be daisy-chained with the first.

Lessons learned:

Buy 6 & 10gph nozzles, most will get by with 6, but 10 may be needed for hotrods. They're cheap enough.

Assume you'll consume water at the full rating of the nozzle installed- either bring extra jugs or add a keg. Anything other than flat-land cruising will activate it.

10psi for the boost switch was a great starting point- 2k rpm & full throttle would reliably activate the system.

 

[Heath_h49008]

You're running WMO? I hadn't even considered that... That was stupid of me considering the number of guys who do.

I'll re-crunch the numbers for WMO/diesel and ATF... It will work out to be a ratio formula that people can plug and play. I'll use your numbers as "actual" vs the stoichiometric projections.

What air pressure were you running at the tank? Full or regulated down?

 

[Heath_h49008]

Flow issue figured out... I think.

70psi at the keg, minus 15psi inside the manifold equals and injection pressure of 55psi. Roughly half of what the nozzles are flow rated at. The 6gal injector is only a "6" at 100-120psi... at 50psi it's a 3gal. (roughly)

I'll double check all the data/specs tomorrow. Sorry for rambling, but this has me very excited. I have to be up at 4:30am, or I'd do it right now!

Thank you again for the write up!!!

 

[PsycoBob]

Full 70psi pressure. My apologies- the nozzles are 3178K75 (installed) & 3178K76. The 'K75 is going to flow ~3.9gph at 55-60 psi. The flow's slightly non-linear, with some complicated math. The 'K75 comes in slightly under a 0.7mm nozzle, once I converted MCMaster's 40/100psi numbers to cc/min. 5gph = 315cc/min, 3.16gph = 199cc/min.

While there are pages listing the conversion math to make it possible to equate different manufacturer's nozzles rated in different ways (mm, cc/min @ odd psi) I just found a chart that gave me a reasonable approximation. About halfway down the page, the Aquamist/Shurflow chart.

Help with water injection jet/nozzle selection - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Here's the direct link to the chart.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/HFS/flow4-s.gif

 

[PsycoBob]

I have the sneaking suspicion that I'm a doofus. I need to pull the injector/adapter assembly for a pic of it assembled... & to check the markings. I think I've got the 10gph nozzle installed- or I mixed up the bags. McMaster-Carr sent the parts in numbered bags & included a packing list with the 40psi ratings. I may have had a brain fart.

On the bright side, I finally managed to get decent pics of all the parts, as installed. Writeup will be added in an edit.

/edit

First shot is an overview of the engine-bay side of the injector & the boost gauge's feed line from the top of the intake elbow.

Second one shows my routing of the DOT tubing & the injector/adapter/90 assembly.

Third is the air-line connection in the cab & the DOT tube entering from the fire-extinguisher's bolt-hole.

Fourth is the Keg & shutoff in the water line- installed in case the DOT tubing should slip a fitting & hose me down before I can depressurize the tank. Probably not needed, as the ball-lock fittings include a disconnect shutoff. Depressurizing the tank with the manual-pull safety valve is a loud affair- do it while you're still wearing earplugs. Keg is ratchet-strapped to the back wall, with a chunk of closed-cell foam to keep it from banging on the wall.

Fifth includes the boost switch & part of the hose it's t'd into. On the right is the tagged wire from the EGT probe.

Sixth is my nifty Westach EGT/Boost gauge.

Seventh is the power tap- I removed the hot-water heater for another project & just connected a spare .mil connector to the wire that normally feeds the blower. Cab switch is now used to enable the injector. Truck's circuit-breaker provides overcurrent protection. Also shown is the relay & diode for the flasher mod.

Eighth is the solenoid- port on the end is plugged as it's normally open to the injector when unpowered.

 

[PsycoBob]

Missed one- pic of spare 18mm spark-plug air-hold/compression-tester adapter. Make sure you get a 1/4" NPT version. You'll need a 1/8" pipe tap to thread the inside of the 18mm end for the injector.

I used Swage-lok fittings from eBay for the DOT tubing, 1/4" ID air-hose from Lowes with worm-drive clamps to go to the keg's adapters.

$12 for DOT tubing & inserts from NAPA
$12 for barbed 1/4" fittings, hose clamps & air hose from Lowes
$28 for 3 nozzles from McMaster-Carr
$65 for Keg, spare o-rings & Gas/Liquid fittings
$12 for 2x 18mm-1/4NPT adapters
$12 for 2x 1/8npt, 2x 1/4npt Swage-lok 90 fittings
$10 (!) for solenoid
$22 for 2-24psi adjustable pressure switch

$173 Complete system

I could've saved $8 on a nozzle & another $5 on an 18mm adapter, but I ****ed near stole that solenoid. Retail on that (discontinued) item is $120

 

[rronning84]

Looking good.

 

[PsycoBob]

Ok, after a couple of long drives (totaling over 1200mi) Here are my experiences & recommendations.

Get a 10GPH nozzle, unless you want to try a multi-stage system. 15 may be needed if you really want to crank it, but it'll demand even more water.
Get the 24v electronic controller from Auber Intruments, set for 1100 degree EGT trigger.
Get an extra keg & quick-connects for swapouts & repairs.
Carry extra water. .mil 5-gallon jugs work fine. Even if it's a 'just in case' jug in a fuel-can holder.

With the boost control I used, 10psi is easy to hit while EGT's are still way down- 8-900 with the system disabled at 10-11psi. EGT triggering will save a lot of water. Trying to fin a way to fill 5-gallon jugs at the average rest stop can be a challenge. Boost triggering averaged 1-1.5 hours a keg, but manually toggling the system off during low EGT pulls added at least half an hour.

While driving, I had to swap the air/water fittings from keg to keg & had problems with the self-sealing oring on the air-side fitting trying to blow out. Easily repairable with a simple screwdriver to disassemble the fitting, but aggravating. Trying to verify that the connections were properly on the fresh keg was a challenge while driving. Perhaps a 60psi well-pump pressure switch before the solenoid to a warning lamp might be in order. Given that I've got a shop van, I'll likely put the entire keg setup in the rear & pipe all 3 of my kegs in series, so I don't have to get paranoid after an hour's hilly driving.

I also plan on using a keyed off/on/start switch to replace my start button- the on position will likely be the new power line for the controller/solenoid. Prior to winter, I'll flush the whole system with air. Starting to get cold around here.

Anyone got any silly questions, or requests? I'll try to remember to post pics in a few weeks of the setup in the back of the van.

 

[Bolkbich]

Subscribed

 

[Csm Davis]

Okay crazy idea but could I use a RV fresh water pump and just pump it to the injector from my fresh water tank? Just trying to simplify it for my set up. That and not a fan of pressure vessels of water, had a fire extinguisher blowup and if I was a little slower would have hurt me, freak accident I know but just me.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Pressure is required to assure proper misting of the water. How much is dependent upon the nozzle and flow required. I don't think that pump will be able to do the job. However, it might be a great way to refill the high pressure side.