K&N Air filter for the deuce

[wallew]

OK, after spending about twenty minutes discussing air filters with Edgar at K&N tech support, we both concur that the correct K&N air filter to use on the deuce will be the RU-3260. The NAPA GOLD number on the filter currently in my deuce is 2837 14699N3 ( it MIGHT be U3 as I can't read my own writing).

As one end of the K&N filter is sealed with a thin plastic cover, you will have to cut that off. AND the ID is 6" instead of the normal 5 1/2", but given the overall width of the filter being 10 1/4" I kinda doubt THAT will cause any problems either.

NOW for the kewl part. This particular filter is a high flow filter and FLOWS 1130 CFM.

Do you think THAT will perk up that little turbo any? I'm off to get my truck registered with the state and get plates. Emissions took 5 minutes and cost $65. On the way back home, I'll be ordering one of these filters. I'll be the guinea pig for this one.

Here's the link to the K&N website, universal filter (round) page. RU-3260 is down near the bottom. Please note that it's 8" tall (just like my current Napa) and it has a 6" ID (current is 5 1/2") and an OD of 7.5" (current is 10 1/4"). SO it WILL fit. You just gotta trim the plastic end off so it will 'fit the hole' so to speak. And I am going to just trim off a 5 1/2" hole in the end NOT connected to the turbo (bottom of the canister).

http://www.knfilters.com/search/univround.aspx

I will also be looking for the best price on tranny oil, axle oil and engine oil (Royal Purple ONLY if you please) AND several bottles of ProLong. NOT gonna be cheap, but hey, ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

 

[98hd]

Personally I would not go with a K&N filter.

When researching an intake system for my '03 dodge w/ cummins. I found that the K&N does not filter up to the specs that cummins and other diesel manufacturers require. I did find that AFE makes a nice filter and their proguard 7 line, filters up to oe standards while still flowing well.

I know the duece is a different beast, but after finding all that out I won't run a K&N ever again.

 

[wallew]

98hd,
I've used K&N filters in ALL my vehicles for the past 15 years.

Gale Banks, holder of the WORLDS RECORD for the fastest diesel truck (222 mph) ONLY uses K&N. That's GOOD ENOUGH for me.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3472&highlight=turbo+diesel

READ and learn

 

[98hd]

98hd,
I've used K&N filters in ALL my vehicles for the past 15 years.

Gale Banks, holder of the WORLDS RECORD for the fastest diesel truck (222 mph) ONLY uses K&N. That's GOOD ENOUGH for me.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3472&highlight=turbo+diesel

READ and learn

That's fine and dandy by me. Just pointing out that they do not filter as well, and most people seem to think K&N is the greatest thing. Here is the test data I had found along time ago.

http://home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm

I know quite abit about banks, and not trying to start a pissing match or anything, but I have no respect for gale banks. He may be great at what he does, but his company is horrible at what they do, and overpriced for what you get. I've read too many horror stories from people to think otherwise.

P.S. anyone know why the email notification doesn't work?

 

[wallew]

98hd,
No pissing contest AT ALL. While you don't LIKE Banks business practices, his records stand out for themselves. And for me THEY STAND ALONE.

As I said in the previous thread, I do agree that there are unscrupulous business people that have worked for the Banks company over the years. And it HAS cost them SOME business reputation.

Have you ACTUALLY read the test results of the link you provided? It says that K&N filter flows MORE dirt than ANY filter they tested. But a CLEAN filter flowed LESS AIR than any filter they tested. Can't have it both ways dude. You can't flow the LEAST AIR through a clean filter and then have that filter 'PASS' the most dirt. Plus the WHOLE TEST was done at 350 CFM. Which for a K&N filter is grossly UNDER performing.

The test also says this:

"BUT, Our trucks CAN'T flow that much air unless super-modified, so what is the point? The stock filter will flow MORE THAN ENOUGH AIR to give you ALL THE HORSEPOWER the engine has to give. And this remains true until the filter is dirty enough to trip the air filter life indicator. At that point performance will decline somewhat. Replace the filter and get on with it."

If this statement were true, then dynos ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, their operators and the people who have their vehicles tested on these dynos and do a before K&N and an AFTER K&N installed are LYING. Don't think so. That's so massive a conspiracy that it dwarfs even the JFK 'majic bullet' theory.

You DO understand that the engine is basically an AIR PUMP. You do get that, right? So, these guys are saying that for a COMPLETELY STOCK engine the BEST filter is a paper filter. PLEASE. Give me a break.

It taints everything they say. Now, when THESE GUYS break over the 200 mph barrier at the Bonneville Salt Flats, give me a jingle. Until then, they are nothing but shills for paper filter manufacturers.

 

[98hd]

My whole point, why I posted that test, and what I wanted when picking a filter, to find the best flow WITH acceptable filtration. It's all about trade off's.

You can get the flow you need and the filtration to not damage anything, and that is what I wanted since I absolutely love the cummins in my truck

Remember, the dirt the fitler lets in will show up in an oil analysis. I seem to remember another post on the tdr, about the oil analysis with different filters, and the higher levels of silicon (dirt).

 

[cranetruck]

Wallew, unless your deuce now has a new "standard" filter, you'll have to get a new one of them too for a good comparison.
You may need to install pyro and boost gauges also and finally, find a good long hill to load the engine.
It's possible that the only advantage will be a higher tolerance for dust and dirt so you don't have to change/clean the filter as often. That would be my bet, anyway.

 

[wallew]

Bjorn,
I am currently running what appears to be a new Napa Gold filter. I don't know if that's a standard filter or not. It's what was in the truck when I purchased it from Jeff.

Having said that, the FIRST thing I do with ANY vehicle we purchase is to change the air filters over to K&N and at the first oil change, Royal Purple and ProLong goes in. Even my wifes brand new 2005 Subaru got a K&N filter installed the day she picked it up.

This is true for every vehicle we've owned for the past fifteen years or so for the K&N filter (since 1990) and ProLong (since 1992). I started using Royal Purple products about five or six years ago.

The thing I like about the K&N filter is that it's THE LAST filter you ever will purchase for the vehicle it's installed in. Yes, you have to clean it every once and a while and 'recharge' the filter with K&N oil. With a 'dual' K&N filter on my 1991 Suburban gets 18 MPG on the flats (1600 mile round trip) or about 16 mpg up in the mountains (we have a few around here).

Anyone who doesn't think it can make a difference in the hp or the torque apparently hasn't used one. Or seen the tests done on dynos ACTUALLY showing the increases. I used to have a dyno sheet for my 1989 Harley that showed about a four HP increase JUST by changing the air filter. But that was back in 1993 and I gave it to the guy that bought my Harley about six months ago.

I just use what I know works for me. If others want to change their air filter once a year (minimum) at whatever it costs, fine by me. BTW, I ordered that K&N air filter today for $44 at Checkers Auto parts. THAT will be the last money I spend on a filter for my deuce.

And DrFoster and I have both agreed that with our idea of bumping up the stock turbo boost to about 10 PSI will REQUIRE the installation of an EGT AND a Boost gauge, MINIMUM. And I PROMISE we got plenty of LONG HILLS here to measure the results.

My biggest fear is upping the engine power enough to require better brakes. THAT would be a problem that can be fixed but will probably cost more money that I want to spend. Life is full of little trade offs.

 

[cranetruck]

Hmm.... I routinly register 12 psi on my boost gauge with a pyro temp of about 1,150F. That's in the hills when I'm loaded and trying to maintain the speed.

 

[wallew]

My whole point, why I posted that test, and what I wanted when picking a filter, to find the best flow WITH acceptable filtration. It's all about trade off's.

You can get the flow you need and the filtration to not damage anything, and that is what I wanted since I absolutely love the cummins in my truck

Remember, the dirt the fitler lets in will show up in an oil analysis. I seem to remember another post on the tdr, about the oil analysis with different filters, and the higher levels of silicon (dirt).

THAT'S WHY I use RP and ProLong. It negates ANY 'dirt' in the oil. And in more than fifteen years of using K&N I'VE NEVER blown an engine. EVER. And I average one speeding ticket every two or three years. I drive my vehicles hard and nasty. Until now, because I AM gettin older and my reflexes ain't what they used to be.

Of course, I ran my Harley with a simple screen for more than ten years with ZERO ill effects. I found that a simple screen flowed even more air than the K&N. That was from the dyno run back in 93. K&N gave me a four HP increase and the screen gave me about five and a half. From 55.2 hp to 59.6 with the K&N and then up to 61.4 hp with just the screen.

Given that it is an 80 CI engine with straight pipes, seeing almost a ten percent gain in HP by just swapping filters was huge for me. The guy who owns it now runs the 'regular' muffler system and is very happy. He still runs the 'screen' that was in the bike when I explained all this and gave him the 'run' sheet from the dyno.

 

[nevrenufhp]

The biggest reason to get a hi flow air filter in a diesel is the lower EGT's. It wont gain you much else, but maybe a little more turbo whistle.

 

[Djfreema]

I recently changed my K&N set up on my truck. I used to have my E-1796 k&n filter bolted on the top of the metal air intake pipe that connects to the turbo. It would use the hot air inside the engine compartment. The boost level increases and the egts were lower but it would still go go over 1200 degrees on long hard loaded pulls. A few weeks ago I cut out the bottom of the stock air filter canister and extended it 5" allowing me to put my k&n air filter inside and suck the fresh cool outside air. Yesterday I flat towed a duece up the "grapevine" on the northbound 5 freeway. Im not sure what the grade is but its basically about 20 miles up several steep hills that the truck type magazines run towing tests on. I had it in 3rd gear doing about 25mph at 14-15lbs of boost with the egt at about 1100-1150 degrees. Last time I towed a duece up the grapevine with the stock paper air filter, I had to continuously monitor the egt and let off the throttle because the egt would sky rocket quickly. The filter definately helps with power especially if you have the fuel turned up. I have to say that the K&N filter does not filter the tiny dust particles as good as a paper element filter. My volkswagon tdi with a K&N has a very light dust coating inside the intake which appeared after replacing the paper filter. Just passing on my experiences with K&N.

 

[cranetruck]

Thanks for that info Djfreema! I have to monitor the pyro at all times when loaded down, perhaps higher air flow will help. The biodiesel is supplied at a slightly lower delivery rate (thanks to the FDC) and I don't have the problem with EGT since running on BD, but I plan to change the setting on the FDC to compensate for the error.
A fender mounted 5-ton filter is another soulution I have pondered (have the 5-ton filter canister on hand and may go for it).

 

[rmgill]

The filter on the M35A3 seems like it'd be easy to change and service.

 

[dma251]

I can tell you from my experiences hot-rodding Cummins diesels that you will not see any noticable performance improvement from running a K/N in a Deuce.

The reason I say that is not because they are a bad filter, they are a good REUSABLE filter, but that trait is what makes them useful to diesel applications, Not that they build power. They build power in gas motors because gas motors work entirely different in their air/fuel demands then a diesel engine. Freeing up the intake and exhaust on a diesel will lower your exhaust gas temperature, and it CAN allow you to inject more diesel into the cylinders, which WILL create more power, but it is that added diesel fuel that is making the additional power, not the increase in air flow. I ran a stock Cummins, with a stock paper filter, and then swapped in a K/N - which netted about 50-100 degrees reduced EGT@WOT. Atfer that I swapped in what is commonly referred to as a BHAF, which is an enormous paper filter that will flow HUGE amounts of air and is made for commercial trucks. That yielded about the same 50-100 degree reduction. I then switched to what is called a Scotty2 which uses a very large AFE pleated cotton oiled filter similar but of higher quility then the K/N -that gave me 150-250 degree reductions@WOT. I experienced vitually no increase in acceleration OR perceived horsepower and only a slight increase in turbo spool up time, because fuel delivery is a seperate variable and had not yet been increased. My point is this - put whatever filter you like on it, you won't notice much difference.

Now if you want to consider K/N from a superior filtering standpoint - don't use them. Most people that are fussy about oil analysis have seen increased silicon levels in their oil when running K/N filters, and a simple example of how dirt is let in is this - take a pre-oiled K/N fresh out of the box and hold it up to a lamp. You can see pinholes of light through it. That is where the dirt is coming in from (that and a history of poor sealing surfaces at the rubber filter base... hence the need to grease then there)

K/N used to advertise as "Superior filtering ability then stock, AND more power!"

They don't say that anymore - the result of lawsuits that PROVED they may flow more air and create more power in some engines, but they sure don't filter as well as a paper pleated filter.

For the record - I have run K/N filters in at least 10 cars/trucks/boats/motorcycles I have owned. I have one in my Buell (Harley Davidson) right now. But I wouldn't put one in a diesel truck because I understand what the limitations are, and believe there are more "diesel-appropriate" products out there.

If you really want to learn about filters and oils there is really only one source on the internet - This is where the experts are.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi



Good luck.

 

[cranetruck]

Thanks, dma, kind of confirms my suspicion. The 5-ton filter may be worth it to reduce the EGT, though.

 

[wallew]

The reason I say that is not because they are a bad filter, they are a good REUSABLE filter, but that trait is what makes them useful to diesel applications, Not that they build power. They build power in gas motors because gas motors work entirely different in their air/fuel demands then a diesel engine. Freeing up the intake and exhaust on a diesel will lower your exhaust gas temperature, and it CAN allow you to inject more diesel into the cylinders, which WILL create more power, but it is that added diesel fuel that is making the additional power, not the increase in air flow. I ran a stock Cummins, with a stock paper filter, and then swapped in a K/N - which netted about 50-100 degrees reduced EGT@WOT.

Allow me, if you will, a couple of observations from what you've said.

1) K&N is a GOOD REUSABLE FILTER.

2)Freeing up the intake and exhaust on a diesel will lower your exhaust gas temperature, and it CAN allow you to inject more diesel into the cylinders, which WILL create more power, but it is that added diesel fuel that is making the additional power, not the increase in air flow.

---

So as a filter, if properly maintained, it IS the last filter you will purchase for your deuce.

Also, IT DOES FLOW more air. WITHOUT WHICH, turning up the fuel will INCREASE EGT and cause all sorts of problems, yes? So, more air + more fuel = more hp/torque.

It seems that your stats are spot on, making my case for me. It will cost less than replacing paper filters on an annual basis. As long as you 'pay attention' to your oil change maintenance schedule (which you should do anyway), this filter will AT LEAST lower EGT. At most, allow you to bump up the fuel and add more hp/torque.

Seems like a win/win situation to me. Where AM I going wrong? And a question if you don't mind. IF you turn up the fuel (because of more air flow - from where ever) and increase hp/torque won't you actually use less fuel BECAUSE you hit the hp you want to use earlier?

I will grant you that with MY heavy right foot, that probably won't be happening. But if you drove 'judiciously' you could increase mpg? Especially out on the highway?

 

[dma251]

I don't think you are going wrong anywhere. But I think you should trust your gauges, and not your seat-of-the-pants impressions. Your pyro will tell you most of what is working and not working. I agree with you saying that regular oil changes are more important then the filtering capability you are giving up for with the K/N. I doubt most people would drive their Deuce enough in a year to make annual air filter changes necessary... I could be mistaken on that, however. If a paper filter has a functional lifespan of say 20-40K miles, are you really going to put that many miles on in a year?

I would recommend that you first and foremost install a pyrometer and boost gauge so that you can monitor what effects if any you are making to your truck. Without at least a pyro, you are not going to know if your filter and fuel choices are putting you in a danger zone. Believe me, it is VERY easy to put your engine at risk without knowing it by making changes to air filters and fuel curves. Even just installing an air filter that you THINK has an adaquate CFM but might in reality not, can cause EGT's to skyrocket, reaching the danger zone of 1200-1400 degrees extremely quick. I have seen on stock trucks' EGT's climb from 600 to 1200 degrees in less then 3 seconds by giving too much throttle with a dirty air filter while under load. Most experts agree that more then a few seconds at 1400 degrees will result in instability of the aluminum piston alloy, causing failure. Remember - aluminum melts at around 1400 degrees. Depending on the alloy, you may make it last a little higher, but it begins changing from solid to liquid fast at those temps.

As for the theoretical increase in mpg by using less throttle due to more efficiancy. I am familiar with the theory, but have never seen it in real-world practice. Perhaps it is because I am not that much different then most people that would install a K/N filter, or some other performance improving device - I enjoy high performance. I doubt you or anyone else has ever seen enough overall mpg improvement to even pay for the cost of the product. Mostly people claim to feel an increase in throttle response more then anything else. (particularly on throttle body injected engines)

That being said - I strongly recommend you take a hard look at some of the other filtering products out there. AFE makes one of the finest cotten/oil filters I have ever seen. Myself, I will stick with a Fleetguard paper filter.

Remember what they say about opinions.... Everyone has one. I used to get really stuck on my own preferences and would defend them to the death, but now I am a lot more open minded to other ideas I wouldn't have given much credit at first. Technology changes pretty fast and what was once the best answer isn't always STILL the best answer.

 

[DrFoster]

I used to use K&N too. They don't match filtration levels until they start to become clogged, then they only have the filtration and flow rate of a similar paper filter.

The size of the filter is so large that flow over time is not really disturbed with light clogging. When it does get dusty, just pull the filter, plug in a line to the glad hand, tape a government ball point pen half on the line, and you have a pressure gun to blow out the filter from the inside out. Filter changes in city conditions was something like 30,000 miles with proper maintenance... not annually by any means, unless it got wet or torn.

All of our Cummins 12.7's we owned were switched to K&N, and we saw no MPG improvement and no power gain when compared to paper filters. Food for thought, I suppose.

 

[rdixiemiller]

I recently changed my K&N set up on my truck. I used to have my E-1796 k&n filter bolted on the top of the metal air intake pipe that connects to the turbo.

DJ
Other than extending the filter housing, did you need to do anything else?
Is your fuel turned up? Or are you running the stock settings? I am toying with bypassing my FDC and improving the engine breathing. I am also planning on changing my C for a D turbo to gain a little boost.