Legal Issues that could effect all MV Owners

Robo McDuff

In memorial Ron - 73M819
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Robo, Fly in for the Rally in Oct. 17oz. is what they start with while waiting for breakfast. rofl
Man, wouldn't I want to do that (although the CO would have a higher priority). Don't want to look dumb, but which rally would that be?


In the Czech Republic of old, that WAS breakfast (maybe with some fat-dripping sausage and a half slice of dark bread)

As to identifying 73M819, I would tip on the guy with the light green had where you only see a partial face and the had. That picture was taken from a wrong angle, the 5-ton should be directly behind the signing ceremony
 

Vandrel

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I'm having the same issue...as is a good friend of mine.

BMY or Harsco was not listed in the local DMV data base so they sent a request to Atlanta to have it added since we have the SF97's from the government.
Also, both trucks (one M923 and one M934) do not have 17 digit VINs and DMV just cannot get it thru their heads that it's NOT a VIN but a SERIAL NUMBER!!

I have a tag/title feller working on it because I just knew I would get locked up when I inevitively blue a gasket and went off like a Chinese firework!!

So...hasn't anyone EVER LEAGALLY titled a BMY Harsco truck in GA?? I KNOW they are out there....er...here.??

I heard...or read...honestly don't remember which, that someone in GA registered an M923 as a Chevrolet?? Well, that would not set right with me, PLUS...where did the extra numbers come from to make a 17 digit VIN??
Interesting topic of discussion here. This problem stems from a number of things but mostly resides with poorly trained DMV employees and lack of clear policy and direction from higher (NHTSA). This problem actually effects a lot of cars, not just really old ones. In my line of business we import Japanese cars into the market, all of which have 11-12 character VIN numbers and none of them carry a U.S. title. I've been to many different DMV locations and every employee and office is different. No one is on the same page or communicates. The majority of DMV employees take one look at the "short VIN" and say it's illegal, or the other half says they need to issue a replacement VIN. Bottom line policy from NHTSA is original number is retained as the VIN and as long as it conforms to FMVSS or is a box 1 exempt vehicle due to age (25 years or older) then it's legal.

Point is that I take the word from regular state DMV employees very lightly. Very few of them are experienced to handle "out of the ordinary" vehicles and will almost always default to "can't be done" or "isn't legal" instead of taking the time to check with the correct people through their chain of command. When in doubt, call NHTSA.
 

undysworld

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Interesting topic of discussion here.

Bottom line policy from NHTSA is original number is retained as the VIN and as long as it conforms to FMVSS or is a box 1 exempt vehicle due to age (25 years or older) then it's legal.

When in doubt, call NHTSA.
I see you're new here. You're correct about box 1 on an HS-7 form, but you're mistaken if you think that NHTSA will straighten out a registration issue with a state.

According to a letter I got from Coleman Sachs, NHTSA chief of import and certification (or some such title), "registration is the responsibility of the state". That means that if state law prohibits registration due to a lack of Cert. Label, then there is nothing NHTSA can or will do about it.

DMV employees, like anyone, make mistakes. But ultimately each state's DOT will administer their own state's laws, and try to do it accurately. Sometimes you must actually get the law changed.
 

swiss

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I see you're new here. You're correct about box 1 on an HS-7 form, but you're mistaken if you think that NHTSA will straighten out a registration issue with a state.

According to a letter I got from Coleman Sachs, NHTSA chief of import and certification (or some such title), "registration is the responsibility of the state". That means that if state law prohibits registration due to a lack of Cert. Label, then there is nothing NHTSA can or will do about it.

DMV employees, like anyone, make mistakes. But ultimately each state's DOT will administer their own state's laws, and try to do it accurately. Sometimes you must actually get the law changed.

Great explaination of the facts!! The local states have jurisdiction per federal code to administer vehicle registration and titling procedures
 

Vandrel

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I agree but that's also where the system has holes in it. Slightly unrelated, for example we often see cars slip into the country when they shouldn't and states end up issuing titles for these cars. Legal? Not at all. It may not happen in the next day and could be 10 years down the road but if a federal group such as ICE learns about that particular vehicle being in the country, even if it's titled, it will be seized.

This actually helps to highlight how messy our system is. Where you have Coleman Sachs who is under the OVSC, office of motor vehicle safety and compliance, where his office is typically the rule maker, you then have the states who do whatever they want despite the code of federal regulations.

My main point was more so directed at state employees who are not properly trained on the code of federal regulations and will simply default to "not legal" and try to get you out of their office so they don't have to do the hard work. :)

Vehicles manufactured in the US are mostly on a completely different level then what I'm dealing with on this topic but I just wanted to share some of my experiences when running through the motions of getting vehicles with non-standard titles and VINs registered in a state.

One of the last things I found interesting many years ago was that there exists a national database and reporting system which states are supposed to all plug into for vehicle information. There's still quite a few states that have yet to get plugged into this system which means everything they do is a black hole to the larger group and information isn't shared or easily accessible to other states or on the federal level.

Like I said, much like immigration, this just shows the how solid the national system is and how the code of federal regulation isn't enforced or is loosely worded leaving states to interpret things how they want to only to negatively effect the end-user.
 

undysworld

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Vandrel,

It's a pretty confusing patchwork of rules and authority over them. Titling is a federal matter, while registration is that of the state/s. It's important that people understand how different states have different laws to deal with.

You're right, participation in a national VIN/title system is mandatory under Title 49 USC, and was aimed at stopping vehicle theft, as I understand it. According to WisDOT, the VIN conformity software only goes back to about 1981 and isn't essentially comprehensive until like '86 or '87. Before that, it was all on paper (and still is).

Regardless of how well a DMV worker is trained, mistakes will always happen too. Ultimately, it comes down to what the law states. Sometimes how the law gets applied gets fought out in court, and sometimes the law gets changed. It's all a pretty fluid issue, from what I see.

I think the need to allow each state to address it's own issues forces there to be some lack of conformity between states, although it would make things simpler to enforce.
 

zout

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Jul/01/2014 - Effective Date
Apr/21/2014 - Act 567
Apr/21/2014 - Senate Date Signed by Governor
Mar/31/2014 - Senate Sent to Governor
Mar/20/2014 - Senate Agrees House Amend or Sub
Mar/18/2014 - House Passed/Adopted As Amended
Mar/18/2014 - House Third Readers
Mar/11/2014 - House Committee Favorably Reported
Mar/05/2014 - House Second Readers
Mar/04/2014 - House First Readers
Mar/03/2014 - Senate Passed/Adopted
Mar/03/2014 - Senate Third Read
Feb/26/2014 - Senate Read Second Time
Feb/25/2014 - Senate Committee Favorably Reported
Feb/20/2014 - Senate Read and Referred
Feb/19/2014 - Senate Hopper

 

Reckless

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25 days left!! :naner:

Now with D-Day fast approaching, Does anyone have a rough idea how the TAFT tax will be calculated? Will it be off declared value?
 

zout

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I spoke with my local Tag office personnel Director to whom this all started with for me. He is the one that called me right after the bill was passed just to let me know - I told him AHHHHHHH Matt - your talking to someone who was envolved in getting that Bill started.

Anyhow - he is pulling my paperwork he saved (along with my phone number) and will be paging through it all to see what I need corrected to process it as the date comes nigh.

The tag offices personnel Directors are all working with the new CARRY LAW here in GA that has to deal with them so that has prioriety at this time - but he will be letting me know about getting this paperwork all done - any just maybe before July 1 - so I can get kicked out ot the Snellville Ga Fireworks Ceremony once again.
 

zout

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Some folks here remember what happened and there might be a link to it somewhere.

We were not in the wrong by anymeans and stating anything other than that would just bring up BS posts if I elaborated on it again - but I remember and so does my wife. So - will just leave it alone.
 

swbradley1

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That's funny Robo.

I can tell you the names of my two favorite workers at the BMV I go to here in Ohio. They ask me why I go there. I like them better than the others is what I tell them.

They joke around with me. I leave them laughing and I go away with a smile on my face. I don't think I've ever been in there for more than about 8 minutes and that includes line time.
 
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