Lockout hubs

plym49

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Apparently the issue of whether one locking hub is enough on the front, or if you need two, is like asking 'which wax is best?' on a Corvette forum. Everyone has their own opinion. My own questioning is not because I particularly care if anyone uses one or two. My question was prompted after someone posted that you can use just one locking hub on the intermediate rear axle, and realizing that GM, Jeep and possibly others disconnect only one end of the front axle on 4WD vehicles.

Facts are facts, I have compiled a few:

1. If you have two locking hubs on the front, when the front axle is not engaged the ring and pinion will be stationary as will the axle shafts and spider gears.

2. If you have one locking hub on an intermediate rear axle, the ring and pinion continue to be driven, therefore the spider carrier rotates. Also, one rear wheel and axle will be rotating at more or less an equivalent speed to the ring/spider carrier (always the possibility of precession). Therefore the unlocked axle will be rotating the same speed as well.

3. If you have one locking hub on a front axle with the front drive disengaged, the ring, pinion and spider carrier will be stationary. On the side without the locking hub, the wheel will be driving the spider gear at the end of that axle. Since the spider carrier is not rotating, then the other axle shaft (the one that is disconnected via the locking hub) will be rotating an equivalent rpm (road speed) in the opposite direction.

Scenario (3) is the one that concerned me many, many years ago when I realized how GM was handling 'automatic' hubs - that is, by disconnecting one axle shaft with a dog clutch. The thought of those spiders spinning all the time concerned me. But think about it. They are spinning with no load. Spider gears are strong enough to deliver ALL the power to the ground, since all of the power delivered by the ring and pinion is in turn delivered to the axle shafts via the spider gears.

I do not ever recall seeing worn out spider gears. I have seen broken ones as a result of abusive driving or pieces of a failed bearing getting caught between the teeth or mismatched components (huge tires, off-road driving and undersized front/rear axles).

Those spider gears can spin like that, under no load, and in a nice oil bath, forever with no problems whatsoever. If they can do that on a puny passenger vehicle, I would not anticipate a problem with a beefy Rockwell.

The automakers would not be manufacturing systems like this if there were a problem - think of the warranty liability if there were.

Nevertheless, I can understand the emotional appeal of installing two lockout hubs. Comfort in symmetry. And that gets us into 'which wax is best', to each their own, there is no right or wrong on this one, just do it the way you are comfortable. Ford/Chevy. chocolate/vanilla. Yankees/Red Sox. (Chevy/chocolate/Yankees, but that's me. :) )

Would I use one or two lockout hubs on my front axle? Frankly, I don't drive my Deuce far enough to cost-justify lockout hubs, so I have yet to cross that bridge. But it is comforting to know that I have the option of running two instead of three in case I suddenly get the urge to drive cross-country, maximizing efficiency.
 

spicergear

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Look at more civvy 3/4 and one tons. I remember vividly about 10 years back being in a Dodge garage and they had a new 1 ton up on the lift. I was looking at the underpinnings and looked at the axle ratios. 4.10 and 4.11. I asked the guy that ran the shop and he never ever saw that before. Yes, it's one percent, but yes (also) it's a different ratio. I've seen it on a couple others as well. Definitely not 5.87's & 5.13's but the ratio is still technically different.
 

spicergear

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You would pretty much want to run both lock outs on the front if you slap a locker in it. Even though a Detroit will 100% open when driven by the axle as opposed to locking when being driven by the driveshaft. It's still a little added wear...
 

Bolkbich

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most trucks with different ratios have a dana in the front and a corporate rear axle like a bronco had a 9" ford rear and a dana 30 or 44 in front one was 4:10 and the other a 4:11 i dont believe it had anything to do with spinning the front faster for more control its just what the axle companys made back then it wasnt like it is now they only had a handful of ratios for certain axles dana had 4:10 but not a 4:11 ford made a 4:11 but not a 4:10 but hey worked fine together
 
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most trucks with different ratios have a dana in the front and a corporate rear axle like a bronco had a 9" ford rear and a dana 30 or 44 in front one was 4:10 and the other a 4:11 i dont believe it had anything to do with spinning the front faster for more control its just what the axle companys made back then it wasnt like it is now they only had a handful of ratios for certain axles dana had 4:10 but not a 4:11 ford made a 4:11 but not a 4:10 but hey worked fine together
^Truth

4.10 and 4.11 are commonly found running together.

3.55 and 3.54 are commonly found running together (done this myself in a 89 Jeep Cherokee).

The difference when the rubber meets the road is small, and wheel slippage when off-road makes any problems go away. Unless you like driving a hundred miles in a straight line on pavement in 4wd, then you have no problem.
 

Recovry4x4

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You get more difference in final drive ratios from tire wear and inflation differences than one does from that 1 point ratio difference.
 
Last edited:

mudguppy

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:ditto:

4.10 vs 4.11 have to do with available tooth count combos of ring and pinions of differing sizes (different axles).

two examples: 37 ring teeth and 9 pinion teeth = 4.11; 41 ring teeth and 10 pinion teeth = 4.10
 

PROSTOCKTOM

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Does anybody sell just one lockout hub?
I would be willing to bet that Ouverson would sell you just one since there

here in the United States and make there own. :: Ouverson :: Hardcore Off-Road Parts

I would think it might be harder to get a single AVM since there made in Brazil

South America and probably come in sets.

You could call Clinton at C & C Equipment C&C Equipment specializing in M35A2 Military Surplus Parts and Custom Military Truck Builds he's a

AVM dealer and see if you can buy a single.

Tom
 

hdmax

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This is no different then putting a new set of tires on the rear, and not the front, or vise-verse.

^Truth

4.10 and 4.11 are commonly found running together.

3.55 and 3.54 are commonly found running together (done this myself in a 89 Jeep Cherokee).

The difference when the rubber meets the road is small, and wheel slippage when off-road makes any problems go away. Unless you like driving a hundred miles in a straight line on pavement in 4wd, then you have no problem.
 

markehle

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I would be willing to bet that Ouverson would sell you just one since there

here in the United States and make there own. :: Ouverson :: Hardcore Off-Road Parts

I would think it might be harder to get a single AVM since there made in Brazil

South America and probably come in sets.

You could call Clinton at C & C Equipment C&C Equipment specializing in M35A2 Military Surplus Parts and Custom Military Truck Builds he's a

AVM dealer and see if you can buy a single.

Tom
Since the ones on the front of my truck are Selectro's, unless I can get another brand too cheap to turn down, I would like them to match. I will see if they will sell me just one.

On the axle part of it, who has those now and how much?

Thanks -

Mark
 

islandguydon

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Just received my ouverson lock outs yesterday, Cant wait to installed them after work! It was nice to see Made In The USA stamped on the dial:D
Merry Christmas Marlboro Man,

Do you have a link for the lockouts you are installing in your MV..?
I am looking for the same set up for a 71 Deuce.
 

moriboy

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Forgive me if this has been covered, but it seems that in a normal pickup that does not have selectable hubs, it would be very hard on the transfer case when shifting into 4 hi on pavement while moving. My pickup (before I installed Dynatrac hubs) was very smooth when shifting in and out of 4 hi while on the go. Seems everything was sync'd perfect...
 

plym49

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Forgive me if this has been covered, but it seems that in a normal pickup that does not have selectable hubs, it would be very hard on the transfer case when shifting into 4 hi on pavement while moving. My pickup (before I installed Dynatrac hubs) was very smooth when shifting in and out of 4 hi while on the go. Seems everything was sync'd perfect...
It's because there is a lag on OEM Detroit trucks set up this way. When you are in 2 Hi, the front driveshaft is not turning, one axle shaft is turning forwards at road speed , the inner stub of the disconnected axle is turning backwards at the same rpm, and the outer end of the diconnected axle is turning at road speed.

When you select 4 Hi, the transfer case starts turning the driveshaft right away, but there is usually a lag in engaging the dog clutch on the stub'd front axle (some GM trucks, for example, use a thermal reactor that takes a few moments to engage the axle, so there is a lag right there).

During this lag period, the ring and pinion start turning at road speed to match the spider attached to the regular axle (the one without the dog clutch). So that axle, the ring, the sopider gears and the inner piece of the stub axle all turn forward at road speed. The only component that sees a change is that inner stub axle: when the front driveshaft engages from the transfer case, that piece goes from turning road speed backwards to turning road speed forwards. Since we are only talking about a short length of axle with low inertia and under no load, you do not realize that this has happened.

Then, a few moments later when the dog clutch engages, everything is basically turning forwards at road speed in a forward direction, so presto chango you are in 4WD smooth as silk.

The reason you are advised not to shift into 4 Hi at road speeds over 40 is that slight differences in the rpm of the front tires vs. the rear tires might be different due to slight differences in their diameter. and that would put strain on the TC and the drivetrain. At lower speeds the tires can more easily accept this mismatch without much of a complaint. If your vehicle has a center diff, of course, then this problem does not exist and that is why we see so many AWD vehicles.

I laugh each time I see some POS cage with a 'real-time 4WD' decal on it from the factory. By that criteria, all my vehicles are 'Batch 4WD'. (This will be hilarious to any computer geeks out there.)
 
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