Losing fuel prime many things done already, still won't run unless bled

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Tinstar

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Again, until you replace all the rubber lines, every single one, your wasting your time.
That should have been one of the very first things done to the truck.
 

cucvrus

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I think it is the injection pump. After is starts it should stay running. Unless you visually see fuel leaking or a hose cracked and wet. Even then it will and should stay running. The rubber head of the injection pump is coming or came apart and is jamming things up inside. I have had this happen several times. I have limped home by removing the return line and breaking the glass ball in the fitting directly on top of the pump. Another this is the lift pump. Are you sure it is lifting fuel? Visually inspect the fuel lines and the sending unit on top of the tank. I still have a few CUCV's that have never had the bed off and have the same stock rubber hoses. Use a mirror or a Milwaukee I section camera. I like using them for many things. I found dead rodents in duct work and heater boxes. Good Luck report back. It is NOT always as simple as it seems. Happy Holidays.
 

drewzee87t

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MO ozarks
I tested with pressure the other day, ran 8 psi back through the returns. The tank was pressurized, the tank cap works as it is supposed to, there was no leaking of anything anywhere for 3 hours. I took it off pressure and left cardboard all under it and next day not a drop. I looked it all over again and felt it all, nothing.

On day after pressure test I did get a few of the return lines at the injectors weeping, and I go the weeping fuel out of the injection pump throttle shaft or whatever it is. Not much, but enough.

I think I have bad check valve in lift pump and bad check valve/who knows what in injection pump. I ordered the AC Delco 43254, hoses and clamps kit for all injector return lines, gasket set for intake and IP, and ordered an exchange IP from diesel care. I should have this fixed in a couple/few weeks (haha). It takes me forever to get these things done, but I do get em done.

@TinStar - I am replacing/refreshing everything I can get to, from IP to the rubber lines that connect where the cab and truck bed meet (where it crosses over to driver side). I looked up top the tank with mirror and stuff and under pressure, could not find anything. I am not going back there unless it becomes inevitable, and in which case I want an empty tank prior to the operation.

I have done pretty much everything to get this truck right, and now it needs this. It is a toy but still an expected work unit. I will put the extra in now and enjoy the good times when it works right.

I have had this thing for 10 years almost !! I have replaced most of the stuff that can go wrong. For a farm truck/wood truck it's been great. Now I want it back to being reliable. I think this will put it in reliable again.



Thanks,
 
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snowtrac nome

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western alaska
I had one of these no start after sitting a while on a 1008 in the guard. look behind the passenger side fender well from underneath the truck there should be a brass t block there used for adding the winterization kit. Mine had the kit removed or never installed I found a loose pipe plug leaking air into the fuel system.
 

drewzee87t

Member
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MO ozarks
Okay, so here is the latest in my fuel saga:

Parts came in for the AC DELCO lift pump this week. I had a few hours yesterday to mess with it. What a blast.

The hard fuel line was not coming off the pump, and the flare nut was boogered badly. I couldn't get any leverage even when I could get a line wrench on it. I ended up pulling the pump and hard line as a unit, which necessitated bending the hard line around a bit. It could be bent back, but the flare nut is toast. There is like an almost 180* bend right there at the fitting, so there is no way to repair this pipe as you cannot the flare nut away enough to cut some off and then there wouldn't be enough left.

I was able to find one from hillbilly wizard, so I guess I get to wait another week or so and hopefully I get one that will fit. In the meanwhile, I do have hoses and clamps for all the injector return lines and access to some of the other soft lines I want to replace. I was going to start doing that and I am looking at it when I start questioning whether I can get the injector lines off without pulling the return hoses and I don't think so?

So my current question(s) for the guru's:

1. My new injection pump should be in on Monday or Tuesday, but I will have to put that new fuel supply line in prior to putting new IP on (I think it would be easier without stuff in the way). Guys that have replaced IP's can you get to the injector lines at just the IP and leave them connected to the injectors? Or is it required that the unit be pulled out (Spider) and all the lines removed completely?

2. This would also help with answer to return hoses question - should I wait until I have all the injector lines back on at the injectors before replacing the return lines, so I don't have to remove them twice?

3. Stupid q of the day: What size are the injector lines at the injector, I don't have a large enough line wrench?

Any other tips or tricks appreciated, except no electric fuel pump commentary.

Thanks!!
 

cucvrus

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Jonestown Pennsylvania
I think we talked on the phone about this. The nozzle lines are 19mm or 3/4" which equates to 19.1mm. They are line wrench tight. So get them lines off the delivery nozzles. Put the entire pump and lines together in a vise with soft jaws clamping the flange, The lines are 16mm / 5/8" at the pump end which equates to 15.7mm. use the 16mm.
Change all your return lines now. Before you reinstall the spider assembly.
Optional to reinstall the heavy ground to back of right cylinder head to get a good bleed of fuel system before installing the intake.
It will run without intake. Loud but will run. Clean area free of everything loose. Start it and thoroughly check for any fuel leaks.
Using a new J code intake gasket set reinstall the intake manifold and torque in sequence.
A liitle tip. Now is the time to replace the 4 small water gaskets. 2 at the rear of the head and the 2 under the coolant crossover manifold. Again clean and double check as you go. a scraper will do it and a shop vac is handy to clean everything out. I stuff a square of paper towel down each head hole as I am working on the engine with the intake off. Easy to remove and prevents foreign objects from finding a place to fall inside the engine. Good Luck. I hope everything works out. Happy Holidays. Give me a call if you have any concerns.
 

drewzee87t

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MO ozarks
Thanks CUCVRUS! We haven't spoken on the phone before, but it seems like it. Really appreciate the good advice. Will report back when I run into the next impossible thing :)

D
 

drewzee87t

Member
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Location
MO ozarks
Lack of progress update - Sunday thru Wed we had ice. I was able to get the injector lines off the injectors, remove the three hex caps that attach the IP to the driven timing gear, removed all hoses/throttle cable bits, down to the last 3 bolts....

The top IP mounting nut is goobered up (not by me). I can't get a 15mm to do anything but mung it up worse. Any ideas ? It's sitting in blaster overnight. I tapped the 15MM on there with a hammer and it just rounded it. What a fun vehicle to work on.

I scrounged around and found a 15mm with a hex box instead of star and hammered it on there. Will check back tomorrow and let blaster do it's work.

I also just got a very nice looking fuel feed tube from Hillbilly Wizard. Thanks HW if you are on here. SO --if I can just get this thing torn apart without breaking or rounding off any more things, I at least have "I think" everything to do the job.

Will I need any fancy bits to tighten the lines back up at the new IP Pump? I have decent quality line wrenches but I don't have line wrench "crows feet" that you can use a ratchet on. Please let me know if that needs to go on my shopping list.

Now for beer....
 

cucvrus

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Jonestown Pennsylvania
I would mount all the fuel lines to the injection pump while the injection pump is clamped in a vise. I use a 16mm Snap -On line wrench. I say Snap -On because I have had lesser name brands open up and assist in stripping flared nuts. Do as you must to the top bolt out. It is threaded into an aluminum timing cover and it may have some electrolysis issues. get a vise grips in there or try a 5/8" 12 point wrench. Get the bolt out and get another bolt M10 X 1.5. Good thing is that it is the top one. Good Luck Report back. Happy Holidays. Be Safe. I also work out in the cold but in my barn during winter months.
 

Bill Nutting

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I had the same issue on my M934. I know it’s totally different, but finding a leak on a line that has negive pressure on it is difficult. I got some advice at Findlay to put an electric fuel pump right at the tank and push the fuel to the fuel pump. That way it primes the system every time I start. I did this. On my test start I turned on the electric pump for a few seconds then cranked the engine. It lit right up. I let it run for for a while to be sure it was all good. Then I saw a small drip of fuel. There was a small bypass line that had a hair line crack. It was on the supply side of the pump so it has negive pressure on it. After replacing the cracked line, I removed the electric pump. I carry the electric pump in my parts kit and can reinstall it in a pinch.
 

drewzee87t

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MO ozarks
Thanks guys. Got it all off today without incident, just need a new bolt when I reinstall. It's sitting on the bench and the line fittings soaking in blaster overnight. I moved over everything to the new pump just waiting to be able to get to the lines.

I got 2 of them loose but I had to hammer on the wrench so I will let it soak and try tomorrow. The new pump looks really good :)
 

drewzee87t

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MO ozarks
Got it mostly back together. I put the pump in and got all the lines connected, surprisingly only had one that was unreasonable to get back on. Put the new fuel supply pipe in. Put in all the new return lines. Bolted up to the driven gear no problems.

>>>20191223_162032.jpg20191223_163450.jpgMy timing mark is way off and I cannot manhandle it back to where it should be. The old pump was ~1/16" towards driver side. Please see pics and let me know if you have any idea what I can grab on. The pin in the slotted on the gear and all the bolts went right in. I think I may need to remove one of the top lines from the pump as it appears the only place to get proper leverage is on the nose where the fuel input hose is, and that line is in the way of me getting a wrench on it. Is there anything wrong here or would it just be the injector lines bent a little and just need to be bent a bit to get me to timing?

Tomorrow I hope to get the timing lined up, then install the new lift pump and a couple sections of new rubber line, and put the alternator back. I might get her fired up tomorrow. I am going to get it running (hopefully) then will leave it for a couple days to make sure it's holding prime and no leaks before re-installing the intake.
 

cucvrus

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Loosen the bolts on the injection pump flange. If the lines are disconnected at the delivery nozzles you should be able to turn it and line it up. I think the lines are holding you from turning it. Report Back. good Luck. Happy Holidays.
 

drewzee87t

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MO ozarks
Will look into it tomorrow. The old IP had some minor seep at throttle seals, but the driveshaft on the old IP had significant play and there was o-ring or seal that was mostly missing, deteriorated. I am guessing I was probably losing prime right into the timing cover. Gonna need a oil change asap just in case.

Thanks again
 

drewzee87t

Member
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MO ozarks
Pump is timed, just needed leverage to turn it. Lift pump installed, 1 hose yet to replace underneath and put the alternator back on. Have batteries charging overnight and will start it tomorrow for Christmas! Hope I have been nice this year :)
 

drewzee87t

Member
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Location
MO ozarks
Wife command did not approve Christmas under the hood :)

Just finally got her started without intake. The high idle is hunting between 875-925 or so but once the temp kicks up it smooth out perfect. I found a couple leaks at the IP and tightened them up. Will now test that it holds prime and can be started after sitting overnight.

Is there an adjustment for the cold idle?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I hope this has fixed my issues.

Drew
 

cucvrus

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Location
Jonestown Pennsylvania
Wife command did not approve Christmas under the hood :)

Just finally got her started without intake. The high idle is hunting between 875-925 or so but once the temp kicks up it smooth out perfect. I found a couple leaks at the IP and tightened them up. Will now test that it holds prime and can be started after sitting overnight.

Is there an adjustment for the cold idle?

Thanks again for everyone's help. I hope this has fixed my issues.

Drew
I would lube the fast idle adjustment and you can adjust the screw. That is what I am assuming you are calling the cold idle. Be Safe. Happy New Year.
 

drewzee87t

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Location
MO ozarks
Alright, well here we are today.......

I have checked and verified proper operation of fast idle solenoid and cold idle timing. The system now holds prime and will start pretty fast next day. I had 32* temps and there was plenty of fuel and fire.

The only problems I am having is that once it starts, the rpm's shoot really high and it is very hard to control the fuel. It takes several attempts in cold to get it running due to rpm zooming around and poor control over throttle. Once I can get it steady it needs to run about 1500-2000 steady for about 30 seconds and then you can back the throttle down and it goes into cold idle controlled by the solenoid. It lopes and surges under that until it is warm and runs at low idle just fine. Revving the engine in any of these cases and letting off the throttle kills the engine. It will restart.

There are no leaks evident at this point and everything appears to be setup correct with cold idle solenoid verified.

I called DC about the pump and they were extremely nice. It would appear that I did not make it absolutely clear when ordering the exchange pump and they sent me a 4502 instead of a j code pump (HD?) . I thought this didn't matter from reading on here, and I even called before ordering to make sure I was getting right pump....Not really a bad on anyone's part, and they are being totally cool about doing another one for me ( I sent them my original) and work out the cores later. He said a light duty pump isn't calibrated to meet the fuel requirements on a CUCV J series and the LD will work but with a lot of problems, as I am experiencing.

Any thoughts on this? If this is the case we need to be very clear to people to send in their old pump AND make sure the people understand the J code application, AND don't do exchanges, get your own unit rebuilt and sent back.

Very frustrating stuff....
 
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