M1009 Lights Work, Won't Start--Nothing when you turn key

[portert0224]

I posted early spring with this problem and am just getting around to my second attempt to fix this problem. Was running fine and while driving down the road, it just stopped running. All headlights, BO lights and turn signals work, but when you turn the key--nothing, no GP relay click, not wait light, no instrumentation lights (very few of those worked when it was running, so it is hard to tell which ones went out when it stopped running--I know the wait light and Gen lights do not work and they worked before.

I ran through all of the diagnostics in the -20. No problems with the alternators, batteries 24 volts, 24 volts at bar on firewall, replaced the starter just in case and that did not fix the problem. Replaced the starter switch and relay switch--not the problem. -20 checks up to the starter relay check good and manual states "trace wiring".

Spent 4 hours today tracing the wires. Everything looks good. No blown fuses, none of the fusible links look large or melted. Yellow wire from ingition switch gets spliced up with the purple/white coming out from the purple 3 from the glow plug card. I can't get to the splice--the yellow and purple/white go behind the fuse box and I can't get the fuse box off because it is tight on the engine side firewall. I took both screws out and felt behind the fuse box and all the wires seem tight.

I took a continuity light and tested at the purple/white that is spliced to the yellow ignitiion wire and turned the key, but I did not get any light. This is where I'm over my head. It seems to me that when you turn the key that I should get a light at that purple/white where the yellow ignition wire splices to.

Anyway, I am at the point where I am willing to pay Mr. Goodwrench to trace the wires, but I am afraid that they don't know Jack about the M1009 and its wiring.

Any thoughts?
PS: I did all of my wire tracing and continity checks the neg cables disconnected, but did the -20 checks with the batteries connected.
Thanks,
Tracy

 

[tlm47201]

My batteries checked 24 volts also, but a shorted cell in one was killing it. Have someone hold the volt meter while you try to crank it, and watch to see if the voltage falls. If not, its in the starter solenoid circuit most likely, even the neutral safety switch maybe.

 

[CCATLETT1984]

DO NOT TAKE IT IN FOR ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS!!!!

They will screw it up royally.
I'll post up a bit later on some things to look at, leaving for work now.

 

[IBEZKUM]

just checking for voltage isn't good enough, you need to loosen and tighten all ,connections start at the batteries,
i had the same problem, everything checked out OK had both 24volts and 12 volts where they belonged, but nothing worked, it was the 12 volt posts above The glow plug solenoid. good luck!

 

[CCATLETT1984]

look at the wiring schematics, then check the ignition switch under the dash. make sure that when the switch is turned to "start" you get output to the starter relay.

If you dont I would consider swapping the ignition switch.

 

[portert0224]

My batteries checked 24 volts also, but a shorted cell in one was killing it. Have someone hold the volt meter while you try to crank it, and watch to see if the voltage falls. If not, its in the starter solenoid circuit most likely, even the neutral safety switch maybe.

Both batteries are brand new, but I will check as you recommend. The starter is a brand new starter, and after replacing the starter and having the same problem, I am beginning to wonder if there was anything wrong with the old starter.

The procedures to check the starter selenoid and starter relay when turning the key was done IAW -20. I'll let you know how the voltage test on the batteries when turning the key turns out. Thanks for the help.

 

[portert0224]

just checking for voltage isn't good enough, you need to loosen and tighten all ,connections start at the batteries,
i had the same problem, everything checked out OK had both 24volts and 12 volts where they belonged, but nothing worked, it was the 12 volt posts above The glow plug solenoid. good luck!

I checked all of the connections on the firewall. But I will double check the 12 volt post above the glow plug solenoid and get back with you. Thanks for the help.

 

[portert0224]

look at the wiring schematics, then check the ignition switch under the dash. make sure that when the switch is turned to "start" you get output to the starter relay.

If you dont I would consider swapping the ignition switch.

I truely think that this is where the problem is along this circuit, but I did replace the starter switch. Looking at the old one, there really isn't anything that can go wrong with these short of burning up and melting or having a wire break. The new one did not have the heavy duty copper and is not as well built as the original.

Please describe to me the steps you would take to check the output at the starter relay. Is this different than the step to check the starter relay by the -20? I did that step and the next step in the -20 was to "trace circuit".

What I really need to know is when you turn the key, what circuits do I check in order of where the electricitiy flows?

Logically, when I turn the key, a couple of things should happen simultaneously--power to the glow plug wait light, water in filter, and to the solenoid and starter relay. But when you trace the complete circuit, it goes in a big loop beginning with the yellow starter wire behind the fuse box, through the firewall down to the starter and back through the firewall to the starter relay and from there up along the top of the dash and back to the back of the fuse box. I checked everything along this path and could not find anything wrong. Frustrating.

 

[Crash_AF]

The switch he is referring to is mounted to the top of the steering column and is actuated by a rod coming from the ignition lock cylinder. It has two plugs going to it and if it is out of adjustment or just plain broken, turning the key won't do anything.

As to what should happen when you turn the key to RUN, the basics are you should have 12V at the pink wire at the fuel injection pump and 12V at the heater fuse in the fuse box. The purple/white wire in the glow plug harness to the controller should also have 12V.

Later,
Joe

 

[CCATLETT1984]

Crash is correct, you can pull the lower cover from the dash and the bolts holding the column to the dash to drop it for easier access. I'm betting that this is where your issue lies.

 

[portert0224]

I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it: It is not the starter switch or the starter relay. These were the first two things I replaced back in the spring when the truck first went dead. The two plugs that plug into the starter switch fit like they should and the rod from the key cylinder works like it should.

There is 12 volts at the pink wire at the injector pump.

The purple/white wire has 12 volts at the glow plug harness.

I did not check for 12 volts at the heater fuse in the fuse box. I will check that and post back.

When you turn the key, the WAIT light is not coming on. I think there is something between the ignition switch and this light that is not working. Does anyone know of any problem or which circuit I should check between the ingition switch and the WAIT light that could go wrong? (short of the obvious like loose connections, blown fuses, etc that I have already checked).

Also, when a circuit has an "A", "B", "C", etc, after it, does this mean that this is the sequence that the electricity flows through the circuit? I think that would help me narrow down the problem if I knew where the electricity went from the time you turn the key until the WAIT light comes on.

Has anyone had any success at trouble shooting wiring circuits using a continuity light to find breaks or bad fuse links that look good on the outside but are blown? If I am going to use a continuity light, should I disconnect the negative cable before using the continuity light, or would it matter?
Thanks,
Tracy

 

[CCATLETT1984]

the wait light could simply be a burned up glow plug controller card, has nothing to do with your no lights/no start condition.

 

[portert0224]

the wait light could simply be a burned up glow plug controller card, has nothing to do with your no lights/no start condition.

1. My lights work. I state that in the topic line and I also stated that in my first post. The lights work. Service lights work. Black Out lights work. Did I mention that the lights work? When I turn the key--no sounds, no wait light.

2. Once of the first things I did back in the spring was to swap out the the glow plug controller card from my M1008 and try it in my M1009. The M1008 turns over with either glow plug controller card, but the M1009 doesn't turn over with either. So it is not the glow plug controller card.

You say that the glow plug controller has nothing to do with my problem, but the glow plug wait light is NOT working and the glow plug relay is NOT clicking and these two problems happened concurrently with the no ignition problem, so somehow the ingition and glow plug circuits are related to the point that the problem is causing neither to work.

So unless anyone else has any other ideas that I have not already tried, I am going to presume that somewhere along the ignition circuit and/or the glow plug circuit there is a break or short in the wire which I don't know of any other method to check other than a continuity light, which I do not look forward to doing because I am not a small guy.

 

[Somemedic]

Porter...

I read the frustration in ur lines. I know this is a hassle but there really are guys who mean well and know what theyre doing. You will have to sift thru some of the dudes who type up some strange things but mostly the knowledge on here would rival some of the shops the military uses to rebuild these trucks. I digress.

My trucks ignition system works like this: WIF/WTS lights worked up until I had an IP pump r/r this winter. They no longer work. The bulbs are good but they dont activate at all. I am running a manual GP switch and have been from the start. Truck cranks and fires everytime. Only have to hit the GPs in the morning for that first cold start. Im not sure what was bypassed. I do believe the resistor still feeds my GP switch.

I hope that helps

 

[Crash_AF]

Ok, let's take a deep breath and calm down a bit. I can understand your frustration and if I lived on the east coast, I'd come over and help you figure it out... LOL

Let's start by running through the individual circuits one by one.

The fuel solenoid circuit is functional since you have 12V at the pink wire at the IP.

The GP circuit is not essential to the crank problem so let's leave it be for the time being...

The starting circuit is next on the troubleshooting list. When you turn the key to start, does the relay under the dash click?
Can you make a heavy duty enough jumper wire to jump the relay terminals to see if the starter will engage manually, thus taking the 24V side out of the equation?
Those should be the two terminals that are farthest away from each other (purple wire on one side, red on the other)

While it is off, you should also check the relay terminal for 12V when the switch is turned to 'start'. That would be the purple/white wire on the relay plug. It sounds like the yellow wire from the ignition switch is not being energized when the key is in the 'start' position. Did you try checking the adjustment of the switch on the column to make sure there is enough throw in the rod to fully engage the switch?

Keep the info coming and we'll fix this problem yet...

Later,
Joe

 

[beaubeau]

Porter, I believe my m1009 just started what U have described. Most of the time it would start ok. Some times it would Click and the starter would try to go, but then continue to CLICK several times before it would go dead. I have checked all connections. Today I removed the starter, and it cranks ok at bench test. I thought maybe the starter solenoid would be bad, but cranks good at bench test. Tomorrow I shall get new starter anyway, seeing its out already. I shall let U know if I find anything strange. Phil

 

[portert0224]

Ok, let's take a deep breath and calm down a bit.

The CUCV problem is not what is frustrating me.

Yes I appreciate the help, but I can read a-20 and curcuit diagram. I am looking for what the -20 doesn't explain--what happens when you turn the ignition switch--how the electrical current flows and in what circuit order.

I have performed all of the -20 steps and it all leads to "trace circuit". The manual doesn't tell you which circuit to trace. Finding out which circuits I could ignore and which I could focus on is what I was hoping to get off the forum. If I knew the chronological order of electrical events when the key is turned, then I could run a continuity test on each circuit from start to end to see if there is a break or short. At least this was my approach to the problem.

Based on what you say, I should not waste any more time on the GP circuit or the fuel pump circuit. I believe the problem is in the ignition circuit, but that circuit (purple/white) does splice with other circuits, which is what was confusing me. For instance, if a branch circuit fails or is grounded out (let's say the circuit that runs to the GP WAIT light) will that cause an ignition failure? There are a lot of curcuits that meet or branch off of the purple/white and it would be helpful to know which ones I can ignore.

I am certian the glow plug card is not the problem, because I have swapped it out with my M1008 which will click and crank. I am not, however, convinced that it is not the GP relay because I don't know enough about how the circuits between the switch yellow wire, the GP relay and ultimately, the GP WAIT light go in sequence to each other.

The key cylinder rod does travel the full length. I did not replace the key cylinder as that is mechanical and as long as it works and is not binding, then it did not make sense to replace it.

There is no clicking from under the dash when you turn the key. I thought this clicking was from the GP relay on the other side of the firewall. Is this correct? Before the CUCV died, yes I did get the clicking followed by the wait light going out.

When you turn the key, it is as if there are no batteries in the vehicle. When you turn the key either part way or full--no clicking and the WAIT light does not come on (it used to before the truck died). Yes, the batteries are fully charged. Yes I get 24 volts at the bus bar on the firewall. Yes the -20 check on 24 volts to the starter selonoid passed.

All of the service lights and B/O lights function.

Yes I can make up a HD jumper wire. When you say "jump the terminals" are you refering to the GP relay on the engine side of the firewall? Please confirm. And I am presuming you have to have someone turn the key to the start position while you are holding the jumper wire to the two terminals, correct?

I have not removed the wire harness tubing cover that all the wires run through along the firewall. Is there any fused links in there that could have burned up? I presumed that any fusable links would have been designed with access. I was not looking forward to dismantling that, so please let me know if I need to do that or not.

I will not be able to do the jump test until the last weekend in AUG due to my work schedule. If I get some free time, I'll try to do the test before then and get back with this forum.

Thanks,
Tracy

 

[CCATLETT1984]

He means to remove the starter relay (silver box) under the dash and jump the terminals in the harness. Thus making sure the 24v path is good. By Heavy Duty, use 10ga. wire.

If you look in the upper right hand of the diagram of the ignition circuits, it shows you the two parts of the ignition harness and a legend of what wires are connected when the key is in each position.

 

[Crash_AF]

Yes, I mean the silver relay under the dash (near the diagnostic connector), not the GP relay. The GP relay only handles the glow plugs and has nothing to do with engaging the starter.

In the starter relay connector, if there is 24V at the red wire, when you jump to the purple wire the starter should engage (use the 10ga wire for that to handle the load without melting). That will rule out a problem within the 24V side of the electrical system and narrow it down to the 12V ignition circuit. If the relay is in place and gets the 12V signal from the ignition switch when it is turned to START, there should be a click of the relay under the dash. It won't be as pronounced as the GP relay engaging.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Later,
Joe

 

[firefox]

Those starter relays are cheap junk. AC delco farms them out to China. After taking several of them apart I decided
to end the problem once and for all. I used the base of the relay as a connector plug. Gutted the relay and soldered in four wires. Put a hole and a gromet in the shell, fed the four wires out the hole and then over to the right side of the plate that the relay is mounted on. Mounted a glow plug relay from Napa. It is a GPR 109 and hooked up the wires to it. Very easy to do with minimal time upside down under the dash. I'm big too.

Now when I turn the ignition switch I can hear the loud clunk of the relay. That relay will not burn its contacts ever.