MEP-004A, No output

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Guyfang

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Burgkunstadt, Germany
In 1973, I had to drive to Graf, and swap some equipment so another unit could pass a NATO evaluation. We got there late, so as to not bring notice of our swap, and parked behind the post engineers HQ. That's the guys who fix everything on post. All Germans, with a figure head American "supervisor". The next morning, after the swap the night before, we had spent the night in our trucks. One of the guys got up and went to pee. Then wondered into the wood shop, where, to our suprise, hung a beer machine selling Kulmbacher beer for 50 pfennig the bottle. So we all bought 4-5 bottles for the road, and motered off, at 09:00 on a cold winter morning.
 

peapvp

Active member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Basehor, KS
There you go! $ 59.98

Services:
Delco 1113250, 1113253

Unit Part Numbers:
Delco 1113250, 1113253

Lester Nos:
3994K


https://www.aspwholesale.com/starter-rebuild-kits/delco/heavy-truck-industrial/30mt/repair-kit-p13902.html

1, 55-1203 ~ Shaft (Shift Lever)
1, 62-1504 ~ Bushing (D.E., C.E)
1, 62-1505 ~ Bushing (C.E)
1, 62-1702 ~ Bushing (Lever Housing)
1, 66-1610 ~ Plunger Assembly
4, 68-123 ~ Brush (24 Volt)
2, 69-1201-2 ~ Brush Holder (Negative)
2, 69-1202-2 ~ Brush Holder (Positive)
2, 69-1505 ~ Support (Brush Holder)
2, 69-1515 ~ Pin (Brush Holder)
2, 69-1703 ~ Brush Spring
1, 71-1104 ~ Gasket (Inspection Plug)
1, 71-1315 ~ Insulator (Field Coil Terminal)
6, 71-1341 ~ Plug (D.E. Mounting Holes)
5, 71-1500 ~ O-Ring (Shift Lever Shaft/Pole shoe Screw)
1, 71-1503 ~ O-Ring (Lever Housing, C.E. Frame)
1, 71-1504 ~ O-Ring (Shift Lever Shaft)
1, 71-1508 ~ O-Ring (D.E. Housing)
1, 71-1703 ~ Oil Seal (Lever Housing)
1, 72-1101 ~ Insulator (Field Coil)
1, 72-1404 ~ Insulator (Field Coil Terminal)
2, 76-1602 ~ Brush Ground Lead
1, 76-1804 ~ Retaining Ring
1, 76-1805 ~ Stop Collar
1, 76-1807 ~ Stop Collar
3, 76-1831 ~ Oil Wick
1, 76-1844 ~ Inspection Plug
3, 76-1954 ~ Pipe Plug (Oil Reservoir)
4, 84-1217 ~ Hex screw (Brush)
4, 84-1318 ~ Slotted screw (Brush Support)
4, 84-1411 ~ Hex screw (Solenoid Mounting)
4, 84-1419 ~ Hex screw (C.E Lever Housing)
6, 84-1420 ~ Screw (D.E Housing)
4, 84-1502 ~ Screw (Pole Shoe)
1, 84-2200 ~ Nut (Solenoid Terminal)
4, 84-2308 ~ Nut (Brush Support)
2, 84-2500 ~ Nut (Field Coil Terminal)
1, 84-2503 ~ Nut (Solenoid Terminal)
1, 84-4201 ~ Lock Washer (Solenoid Terminal)
4, 84-4309 ~ Lock Washer (Brush Support)
4, 84-4401 ~ Lock Washer (C.E Lever Housing)
1, 84-4500 ~ Lock Washer (Motor Terminal)
1, 84-4501 ~ Plain Washer (Field Coil Terminal)
1, 84-4610 ~ Brake Washer (Armature Comm End)
1, 84-4710 ~ Spacer Washer (Lever Housing)
1, 84-7500 ~ Insulating Washer (Field Terminal)
1, 84-7706 ~ Brake Washer (Armature Lever Housing)
1, 84-8901 ~ Retaining Ring (Shift Lever Shaft)

They may still have repair parts. Kris, if the price of fixing it is higher then the one in Flebay, think about it.
 
Last edited:

KLChurch

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Location
Montgomery/TX
The person at the shop was an old fart and remembered this starter. He also said it was a popular starter.
He gave me a timeline of 2 to 3 days.
Kris
 

KLChurch

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Location
Montgomery/TX
Guy,
Peter tested the Frequency Transducer and determined that it was OK.
But the gages on the control panel are varying.
59 to 60 hz
and 208 t0 210 on the volts
Is this normal to you.
I don't know if this is good or bad.
Kris
 

peapvp

Active member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
395
53
28
Location
Basehor, KS
The formula is as follows:

Hz = (rpm x poles) / 120 = (1800 x 4) / 120 = 60Hz

and

rpm = (Hz x 120) / poles = (59 x 120) / 4 = 1770 rpm

This means, if Kris's Analog Gauge is correct that the engines varies between 1770 rpm and 1800 rpm

My guess would be that the gauges are worn out, rubber band, diamond bearing, spring etc.




Guy,
Peter tested the Frequency Transducer and determined that it was OK.
But the gages on the control panel are varying.
59 to 60 hz
and 208 t0 210 on the volts
Is this normal to you.
I don't know if this is good or bad.
Kris
 

KLChurch

New member
475
2
0
Location
Montgomery/TX
Update on starter:
There was a lot of things wrong with it which I cant repeat because I don't understand the slang.
A commentator needs to be purchased.
So I wont have it until sometime next week.
It should be close to brand new when he is finished.
When I get it back I will ask him what he thinks caused the need of repair.
Kris
 

peapvp

Active member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
395
53
28
Location
Basehor, KS
Kris, I hate being a smart ass, bu it’s

A commutator is a rotary electrical switch in certain types of electric motors and electrical generators that periodically reverses the current direction between the rotor and the external circuit. ... In a motor the commutator applies electric current to the windings.

cause: one trillion starts in 40 years so the brushes wore down and grinding down the commutator with the springs
because of lack of care of the previous owner.....

2C1E45DA-322E-441D-971A-394F5BA90993.jpeg



Update on starter:
There was a lot of things wrong with it which I cant repeat because I don't understand the slang.
A commentator needs to be purchased.
So I wont have it until sometime next week.
It should be close to brand new when he is finished.
When I get it back I will ask him what he thinks caused the need of repair.
Kris
 
Last edited:

Guyfang

Well-known member
6,787
425
83
Location
Burgkunstadt, Germany
Guy,
Peter tested the Frequency Transducer and determined that it was OK.
But the gages on the control panel are varying.
59 to 60 hz
and 208 t0 210 on the volts
Is this normal to you.
I don't know if this is good or bad.
Kris
It depends on what you are powering. For your house and needs, 1 hertz is no big thing. For a 25 million dollar missile system, yes, it's a big thing. Two volts, the same.

The thing is, for me, is that it's a voltage problem. The volt meter, if it moves, can only show what coming to it, from the main gen. The voltage starts at the main gen, the volt reg controls how much comes out, because the R1 tells it what to do. The voltage travels from the main gen, to TB1. From there, a circuit takes a sample of, (I think L2, but would have to look) voltage and sends it to S8, (volt-amp selector switch.) From S8, pins 11 &12 for the AC Volt Meter, M9. And pin 17 goes to the A2, (Freq/Transducer) and then to the M6, (hertz meter.) If both meters move, its probably an unstable output voltage. If only M9 moves, and not M6, its probably not output voltage. I would take measurements at TB1. Then at S8, terminals 11 &12, to test voltage. And for freq, at A2, pins 1 &2 to see if you have instability. In the norm, when the M9 is bad, it works, or not works. Sometimes it erratically jumps, but that's a sign the meter has a broken wire in it. When M6 goes bad, it works, or it doesn't. Yes, it too can jump up and down, but that just means the meter has a broken wire. When the A2 is bad, the meter simply will not move. The only way to test A2 and the M6, (in the field) is to check A2, 1&2 for 120 volts. if the AC volts are there, then (by the book) is to hook another meter to the A2, to see if it will read. The TM will not tell you how much the A2 puts out voltage to the M6. Its Milli volts I think. The TM will tell you to replace the A2 and M6 together. I never did. was my hertz meter 1000% right? No. But close enough for government work. And as everyone has mentioned, a analog meter is better for these tests. Digital simply will not show you the instability
 

Guyfang

Well-known member
6,787
425
83
Location
Burgkunstadt, Germany
Kris, I hate being a smart ass, bu it’s

A commutator is a rotary electrical switch in certain types of electric motors and electrical generators that periodically reverses the current direction between the rotor and the external circuit. ... In a motor the commutator applies electric current to the windings.

cause: one trillion starts in 40 years so the brushes wore down and grinding down the commutator with the springs
because of lack of care of the previous owner.....

View attachment 779084
Like I posted earlier. Dead short to ground. That's why the M4 DC meter went deep into the red. Modern brushes have a spring, with a non conductor end piece, that pushes the brush away from the commutator when it gets too worn. No contact between the brush and commutator, no start. But saves the commutator from being destroyed.
 

peapvp

Active member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
395
53
28
Location
Basehor, KS
Guy,
we did this already with DMM on TB1

The gauges have response time of 350ms to 700ms

hard to believe that a 40 year old Analog Gauge / Meter is more accurate then a DMM

This is the reason why I had Kris sent the transducer to me so I could verify the correct operation - The DC Voltage output does not drift at all




Update:
I finally ran Peters request to check hz and volts at L1 and L0.
I was witnessing on the control panel the hz and volts varying.
hz was varying from 59 to 60 hz. The volts varying about 2 volts at 208 setting.
So peter instructed me and patiently helped me set my DMM to hz.
Started the gen and compared the control panel gages to the DMM with no load on the gen
Panel switch was in the L1-L2 position
Results:
Panel was varying 59 to 60 hz entire time the gen was running
DMM was varying approx. -.5 hz starting at 59.5 hz then during 5 mins of running climbed to 60 hz varying only -.05 hz
The readings were the same with the breaker closed and open.
The gen doors were open and the slight breeze seemed the effect the hz. approx. .05 hz
After this test gen was shut down.

Next was to test the volts against the panel and DMM.
Set the DDM to VAC
Started gen and compared volts

Breaker open
Panel: 208 varying +2 volts
DMM : 15.9 volts

Breaker closed
Panel: 208 varying +2 volts
DMM: 119.7 solid no variance

Peter thinks the Frequency regulator in the control panel needs looked at. (Peter correct me if I misspoke)
So I told him I would un install it and have him test and repair.
Also because the volts was not varying he said the A11 was operating to spec
Kris
 

Guyfang

Well-known member
6,787
425
83
Location
Burgkunstadt, Germany
Guy,
we did this already with DMM on TB1

The gauges have response time of 350ms to 700ms

hard to believe that a 40 year old Analog Gauge / Meter is more accurate then a DMM

This is the reason why I had Kris sent the transducer to me so I could verify the correct operation - The DC Voltage output does not drift at all
I won't say it's more accurate. But maybe more sensitive. You can see the meter needle move. The new DMM may be better then what I used years ago. Don't know.
 
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