Niehoff N3030 Regulator/ M1078/ doesn't have flashing light capacity

[Lugnuts]

This is a 3 fold question
1/ I am having difficulty locating the test procedure for this regulator and I am asking if any one has it and would like to share.
2/ They seem to be quite pricey and before I purchase one are they any for sale within the group new preferably and what kind of price do they normally run.
3/ Is there an upgrade that is better
Thank you

 

[Ronmar]

Do you have the Neihoff manual? Goto the neihoff website here to download it. There are troubleshooting procedures in there. https://ceniehoff.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/TG18_uid252021124312.pdf

There are 2 screw terminals ON THE REGULATOR. The first question I always ask, is with the engine running, what voltage do you see on the forward-most ENG terminal(closest to the pulley). It should be 24V. It must be 24V to enable the regulator to start making power. If it is there, what are you seeing on the output terminals? The alternator needs to see a valid 12 out of the middle of a 24v battery relationship on it’s output terminals in order to function properly. So bad or mis-connected batteries can cause the alt to not perform properly.

If 24V is not present at the ENG terminal on the regulator, with the engine running, You should still have 12 and 24 on the alternator output terminals from the battery, so if the forward regulator terminal doesn’t have 24, use a test wire to jumper battery 24V from the alternator 24V output terminal, and see what that does for your output voltages. Working properly you should see 14.1/28.2(With proper batteries and connections). If this works, then the alt is OK And you will have to troubleshoot the alternator excite control circuit…

As for upgrades you can fit a 200A dual volt from a humvee, or you can put in a straight commercial 24V alt and derive the 12V using a 100A bussman or vanner equalizer/converter. Not sure what the 200A humvee dual volts are going for these days, but the 24V alt and converter route can be done for less than a replacement 1506 alternator…

 

[Lugnuts]

Do you have the Neihoff manual? Goto the neihoff website here to download it. There are troubleshooting procedures in there. https://ceniehoff.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/TG18_uid252021124312.pdf

There are 2 screw terminals ON THE REGULATOR. The first question I always ask, is with the engine running, what voltage do you see on the forward-most ENG terminal(closest to the pulley). It should be 24V. It must be 24V to enable the regulator to start making power. If it is there, what are you seeing on the output terminals? The alternator needs to see a valid 12 out of the middle of a 24v battery relationship on it’s output terminals in order to function properly. So bad or mis-connected batteries can cause the alt to not perform properly.

If 24V is not present at the ENG terminal on the regulator, with the engine running, You should still have 12 and 24 on the alternator output terminals from the battery, so if the forward regulator terminal doesn’t have 24, use a test wire to jumper battery 24V from the alternator 24V output terminal, and see what that does for your output voltages. Working properly you should see 14.1/28.2(With proper batteries and connections). If this works, then the alt is OK And you will have to troubleshoot the alternator excite control circuit…

As for upgrades you can fit a 200A dual volt from a humvee, or you can put in a straight commercial 24V alt and derive the 12V using a 100A bussman or vanner equalizer/converter. Not sure what the 200A humvee dual volts are going for these days, but the 24V alt and converter route can be done for less than a replacement 1506 alternator…

Didn't think about going back to Niehoff, thank you for the link. I will take a look at this today and get back with you.

 

[Lugnuts]

Do you have the Neihoff manual? Goto the neihoff website here to download it. There are troubleshooting procedures in there. https://ceniehoff.com/Documents/Ctrl_Hyperlink/TG18_uid252021124312.pdf

There are 2 screw terminals ON THE REGULATOR. The first question I always ask, is with the engine running, what voltage do you see on the forward-most ENG terminal(closest to the pulley). It should be 24V. It must be 24V to enable the regulator to start making power. If it is there, what are you seeing on the output terminals? The alternator needs to see a valid 12 out of the middle of a 24v battery relationship on it’s output terminals in order to function properly. So bad or mis-connected batteries can cause the alt to not perform properly.

If 24V is not present at the ENG terminal on the regulator, with the engine running, You should still have 12 and 24 on the alternator output terminals from the battery, so if the forward regulator terminal doesn’t have 24, use a test wire to jumper battery 24V from the alternator 24V output terminal, and see what that does for your output voltages. Working properly you should see 14.1/28.2(With proper batteries and connections). If this works, then the alt is OK And you will have to troubleshoot the alternator excite control circuit…

As for upgrades you can fit a 200A dual volt from a humvee, or you can put in a straight commercial 24V alt and derive the 12V using a 100A bussman or vanner equalizer/converter. Not sure what the 200A humvee dual volts are going for these days, but the 24V alt and converter route can be done for less than a replacement 1506 alternator…

So I did as you instructed and here are my findings/ The front screw on the regulator labeled 35 comes from the Alternator excite and it performed what it was suppose to. It had battery voltage of 26.9 and turned on and off with engine/ The rear screw labeled 10 I see that it goes to a socket I guess for other things the military has but it had a voltage of 25 voltsdc while running and kept bouncing/ The output on the Alternator 24vdc read 27/ The 12 side of alternator read 12.7 vdc/ The voltages at the battery corresponded to the findings at the alternator/ I'm kind of at a loss and to say it was the regulator or the alternator/ It has raised the voltage but is not charging the 28.4 that one would look for and on the 12 vdc side not what I am looking for at all.
Six months ago I had the problem that the 12vdc side was not charging but the 24vdc side was over charging. I cleaned the ground strap from alternator to frame and that remedied that problem/ So I went back over and checked my grounds. They were fine/ I pulled the Regulator and cleaned between alternator and regulator/ All grounded/ Battery connects are lug and threaded post and good. Since voltages are the same at battery as well as alternator I would say that they are good. If the parts weren't so expensive I would change out a regulator and if that didn't correct the problem I would do the alternator but I don't happen to have that luxury.
I do have the luxury of your input if you please. And thank you

By the way, I went to your link and they didn't have anything for me. So I went to Niehoof and that regulator was not listed amongst their materials/ Just for your information.

 

[Ronmar]

So I did as you instructed and here are my findings/ The front screw on the regulator labeled 35 comes from the Alternator excite and it performed what it was suppose to. It had battery voltage of 26.9 and turned on and off with engine/ The rear screw labeled 10 I see that it goes to a socket I guess for other things the military has but it had a voltage of 25 voltsdc while running and kept bouncing/ The output on the Alternator 24vdc read 27/ The 12 side of alternator read 12.7 vdc/ The voltages at the battery corresponded to the findings at the alternator/ I'm kind of at a loss and to say it was the regulator or the alternator/ It has raised the voltage but is not charging the 28.4 that one would look for and on the 12 vdc side not what I am looking for at all.
Six months ago I had the problem that the 12vdc side was not charging but the 24vdc side was over charging. I cleaned the ground strap from alternator to frame and that remedied that problem/ So I went back over and checked my grounds. They were fine/ I pulled the Regulator and cleaned between alternator and regulator/ All grounded/ Battery connects are lug and threaded post and good. Since voltages are the same at battery as well as alternator I would say that they are good. If the parts weren't so expensive I would change out a regulator and if that didn't correct the problem I would do the alternator but I don't happen to have that luxury.
I do have the luxury of your input if you please. And thank you

By the way, I went to your link and they didn't have anything for me. So I went to Niehoof and that regulator was not listed amongst their materials/ Just for your information.

That link is to the 1506 alternator. The 3030 reg is a part of the 1506 and covered in that troubleshooting guide. It has tests to determine if it is alt or regulator…

 

[Ronmar]

That second terminal on the reg is a F- terminal. It samples right where the field winding connects to the regulator. The field receives 24v on one endand the regulator switches/pulses it to ground on the other end to build and regulate the field which causes the generator to create power.

It is used by a device like the LBCD to determine alternator load based on the duty cycle of the signal seen there. The fact that you see varying voltage there tells me the regulator is trying to excite the field…

these things are sensitive to battery condition and connection . It delivering 27 almost hints at a bad 12v battery or connection. That is what my alt delivers when I disconnect the 12v…. It is like if it doesn't see a good 12-24 relationship it goes into a trickle charge mode. 27v divided by 2 = 13.5 which is a good low rate trickle/high float voltage…

how many bats you running? Are they charged and tested?

 

[Lugnuts]

That second terminal on the reg is a F- terminal. It samples right where the field winding connects to the regulator. The field receives 24v on one endand the regulator switches/pulses it to ground on the other end to build and regulate the field which causes the generator to create power.

It is used by a device like the LBCD to determine alternator load based on the duty cycle of the signal seen there. The fact that you see varying voltage there tells me the regulator is trying to excite the field…

these things are sensitive to battery condition and connection . It delivering 27 almost hints at a bad 12v battery or connection. That is what my alt delivers when I disconnect the 12v…. It is like if it doesn't see a good 12-24 relationship it goes into a trickle charge mode. 27v divided by 2 = 13.5 which is a good low rate trickle/high float voltage…

how many bats you running? Are they charged and tested?

The batteries are 1 year old and stay on a charger when in station/ I tested battery condition by voltage/ I run two Group 31 threaded posts and have for 1 year without fault except for the bad ground I stated at the Alternator

 

[Lugnuts]

The batteries are 1 year old and stay on a charger when in station/ I tested battery condition by voltage/ I run two Group 31 threaded posts and have for 1 year without fault except for the bad ground I stated at the Alternator

I will also post this flow chart for the test.

 

[Ronmar]

I will also post this flow chart for the test.

Yep, those are the tests…

 

[Lugnuts]

Yep, those are the tests…

Thank you Mr. Ronmar Sir. Those flow charts made me think I knew what I was doing. Diagnosed a bad Alternator on the full field test on the armature/ No magnetism. Takes all the guess work out of that. Right now I ordered an Alternator from www.double-alt.com/ Talked with Ron the fellow that heads it up and was pleased with what he was offering/ Has a web site and thought I'd share it with you if you have a curiosity to know whats out there.
Lugnuts

 

[Ronmar]

Hav heard nothing but problems with those, but have no personal experience…. Myself I will go with a straight 24v and converter, both widely used commercially in truck and bus fleets and readily available….

Sorry it was a bad alt chassis…. It being brushless it is probably diodes on the rotor tgat rectify the field energy to feed it to the rotor field winding, or the winding itself…

 

[Third From Texas]

Hav heard nothing but problems with those, but have no personal experience…. Myself I will go with a straight 24v and converter, both widely used commercially in truck and bus fleets and readily available….

I've heard bad things, as well.

If my alt ever craps out I'll absolutely be picking up a HD commercial 24v alt for 1/10th the price tag of a Neihoff.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Out of curiosity (and frustration with my Niehoff ) - what bad things have you all heard about this double-alt.com offering?

I don't see the point in replicating the dual voltage alt situation - but having two 24v alts (and using a 24/12 converter on one side) in a single unit for redundancy.... now that's intriguing .

Probably easier to just carry a spare though.

 

[Lugnuts]

I've heard bad things, as well.

If my alt ever craps out I'll absolutely be picking up a HD commercial 24v alt for 1/10th the price tag of a Neihoff.

I'll keep y'all posted then and write something up on it. I am going to go ahead and get one because of the situation I am in but I will do a personal follow up so then you don't have to have heresay. I have to agree it is pricey but suppose to be a direct bolt in and the concept seems to be worthy. There is a fool born every day so maybe this is mine and then again maybe not. I'll let y'all know. Thanks greatly for the input guys, I do appreciate it!!!

 

[Ronmar]

Out of curiosity (and frustration with my Niehoff ) - what bad things have you all heard about this double-alt.com offering?

I don't see the point in replicating the dual voltage alt situation - but having two 24v alts (and using a 24/12 converter on one side) in a single unit for redundancy.... now that's intriguing .

Probably easier to just carry a spare though.

Poor quality, poor service when something went wrong. As for the concept, I think it is simply a pair of alternators tied together. If the alts used are not readilly available, you are back in the position of having a rare bird under the hood and no spare parts…

I am not specifically familiar with the control method it employs. If it is 2 alts tied together I am not sure how well this will function as a battery balancer with 2 independent regulators… The Neihoff like a balancer, delivers very close to exactly 1/2 the voltage applied to the 24V side… varying loads on 2 different regulators could have this relationship all over the place on a dual alt…

if you use a 24-12 converter/balancer you only need one 24V alt. This install would be quite easy, especially with 2 batteries. Place the balancer at the batteries and connect it’s 3 leads to gnd, 12 and 24. Install a 24V alt and only connect the 24V alt output lead and ground…

 

[Third From Texas]

Out of curiosity (and frustration with my Niehoff ) - what bad things have you all heard about this double-alt.com offering?

I don't see the point in replicating the dual voltage alt situation - but having two 24v alts (and using a 24/12 converter on one side) in a single unit for redundancy.... now that's intriguing .

Probably easier to just carry a spare though.

Just a thread back from the FB on the LMTV group a couple years back. Someone had expressed interest and a couple people who had dealt with them spoke out. Wasn't anything good said about them (from price, to failures, to service). There's not many dual voltage solutions and when one comes up people are interested. And the price was right up there in the thousands with a new or scalpped Niehoff (where a proven HD 24v alt and a step down for the 12v can be had for around $300-400). Single voltage with a step down is a very simple solution.

Good idea carrying a spare, at least if you are going 3rd-world traveling and can't find a NAPA.

 

[Lugnuts]

Poor quality, poor service when something went wrong. As for the concept, I think it is simply a pair of alternators tied together. If the alts used are not readilly available, you are back in the position of having a rare bird under the hood and no spare parts…

I am not specifically familiar with the control method it employs. If it is 2 alts tied together I am not sure how well this will function as a battery balancer with 2 independent regulators… The Neihoff like a balancer, delivers very close to exactly 1/2 the voltage applied to the 24V side… varying loads on 2 different regulators could have this relationship all over the place on a dual alt…

if you use a 24-12 converter/balancer you only need one 24V alt. This install would be quite easy, especially with 2 batteries. Place the balancer at the batteries and connect it’s 3 leads to gnd, 12 and 24. Install a 24V alt and only connect the 24V alt output lead and ground…

From what I read the Double Alt houses a 24 volt alternator that is regulated and a 12 vdc alternator that is regulated. The use for this truck is Brush Truck. The 12 vdc side is used extensively for all the 12vdc for fireside communications and lights as well as equipment. So there is quite a draw on the 12vdc side. Having an alternator for its own is significant.
As for the convertor do you have the name that you recommend and a wire schematic for such a hook up. Would appreciate it Thanks for your input.

 

[Ronmar]

Google cooper bussman converter, or vanner converter. Both their websites have hookup diagrams, but is not very complicated.

You connect 24v from the alt to your series connected pair of batteries. You connect the 24v load lines to the ground and 24v at the batteries.

The converter has 3 connections. One goes to ground, one goes to 24v. You have 2 ways to connect the 12v.

1. You can connect the 12v connection and the 12v load line out to power vehicle to the battery 12v. This will maintain the balance of the batteries and supply the 12v loads just like the dual volt does now.

2. You only connect the 12v load line to the 12v terminal on the converter, with no 12v battery connection. With no 12v connection to the battery the battery becomes a 24v batt and the 2 12v batteries should stay equalized all by themselves. The converter would take 24 and produce 12 to feed the truck loads.

Either way is acceptable, with 12 wired to the batteries you have a little greater 12v surge capacity, and if the converter fails you can still draw 12 out of the middle of the 24 long enough to complete the mission/ until you get parts, same as you could with a failed alt on any vehicle.

once ran a dailey driver for weeks with no alt. Hooked it up to a charger every night to top off the battery…

 

[Third From Texas]

This is the model I have. Still not installed yet, but it 's slated for later. Used to be a common auction item for ~$100 but they dried up over the years. Used ones can be found from school busses, etc.

*NOT mine

Cooper Bussmann Eaton DC 21100E00 Battery Equalizer 100A 24V To 12V - NEW-SEALED | eBay

3 & 4 - Unopened/Factory Sealed Units (what you will receive). Output Current 100. Special Features High Current Converter/Equalizer. Low standby current drain - typically 5mA or less. Will continuously stand off up to 100Vdc.

www.ebay.com

EATON 24V to 12V Converter | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for EATON 24V to 12V Converter at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

 

[Ronmar]

Victron energy also makes good stuff. This is not an equalizer so would only take 24 from the battery/alt and create 12 for the truck loads. I was looking at one of these for my truck, until I got a good deal on a vanner equalizer.

They can be paralleled for 140A, have an adjustable output and they have a remote switch input for control. This means they could be linked to the ignition and fully shutdown when the main sw is turned off, or turned on by an aux sw to provide 12 whenever desired…

https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Orion-12-70A-DC-DC-Converter/dp/B01BF5BQLA/ref=asc_df_B01BF5BQLA/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=216526779832&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16053936055107068531&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027744&hvtargid=pla-348384104616&psc=1