optimizer long block - hummer 24V or cucv 24v

richingalveston

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I crawled under my truck yesterday and got all the body nuts sprayed down with PB blaster and looked real close with a light. I have grease and dirt but good paint and almost no rust. I have two spots out by the rockers on the supports but otherwise, degrease and clean and it looks as good as new.

I was on the fence about removing the body and late Saturday loading a trailer, I pulled a shoulder muscle pretty bad so I am now definitely not going to pull the body at this time. It really can wait a couple years. I am sure I will be doing some more work down the line and I will pull the body then.

I am on limited duty for a couple weeks.
I have already started cleaning the fire wall to get it painted. I am going to clean and paint as far down the fire wall as I can and call it done for now.

The new motor should be here in two weeks so I can get that done and then go directly to the motor install.

I am going to start a new thread for the motor install.

Rich
 

Sharecropper

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Hi Rich; I have always enjoyed your posts and appreciate your attention to detail. I am confident there are many CUCV owners on SS (including myself) who would like to convert their 6.2 over to a serpentine system, however the process is indeed a puzzle, and the magnitude of the puzzle seems overwhelming. Because the conversion process, to my knowledge, has never been documented, what you are in the process of doing will result in the development of extremely valuable information. If you would photo-document each step of the process and provide part numbers for convenience of accumulating the correct components, I, for one, would be willing to make a monetary contribution to help offset your conversion costs. Just my 2 cents for your consideration.
 

richingalveston

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I think corelokt will be ahead of me on the serp system. I will document my engine build thread. For now, I am going to go with the standard cucv system and get that running first.
The only thing I will be wasting is a water pump to change to serp so I am going to wait on the serp.

I am looking and if it falls in my lap I will go that route but not likely in the next 4 weeks.

The motor should be here next week. I am having the intake, water cross over, oil pan and trans pan (exterioir) powder coated green to match the truck. I think I like the ceramic coating for the exhaust manifolds, cross over and possibly the down pipe from the turbo. It looks like they can match the green also.

I may have some picks of the long block on the stand by the end of next week. wont be in a huge hurry, hope to have it on the road by Christmas. I will get a lot of time over thanksgiving to get some stuff done.

I will post pics. I am in process of getting the photo album in order so I can post a build thread in one post.
The only monetary contributions I need are for someone to buy the parts I now have for sale. Got to get something back on all the new 6.2 parts I have.

Thanks for the input
Rich
 

Barrman

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Rich,
I am going to bring up the V belt versus Serpentine belt argument again because I am right in the middle of it.

My former USAF Suburban with a 6.2 and all 12 volt system truck would eat a stock 60 amp 12SI alternator 1 to 2 times a year. Running the front and rear a/c blower motors on hi all the time just killed them. I bought a replacement from O'Reilly's with the warranty and kept my first core. I rebuilt the core and got to where I could swap in a replacement in less than 10 minutes, take the broken one to the store, get an exchanged new one and swap it in a few months later. I finally installed a CUCV 100 amp 27SI alternator with the different CUCV brackets and tried to let the truck idle a few minutes after start up and before shut down with no fans running. Almost a year now and the same used CUCV alternator is still alive. I have gone through 3 Gates belts for that alternator in the past year though.

With that in mind, my build for the Cowdog CUCV clone Suburban started with the idea of at least one 100 amp plus alternator. Looking through the Chevy diesel forums of which there are several. Lots of reading about things going bad but never a mention of failed 105 amp 130CS alternator or of serpentine belts going in just a few thousand miles. I wanted the CS130 alternator and serpentine belt drive.

I had an engine with the pre 1995 belt drive to pull parts from. I then got the 1997 engine with serpentine drive from NDT. Which style to choose? It matters because the older version has the single thermostat and the alternator on the drivers side of the engine. The 1997 up style has the alternator on the turbo side and dual thermostats with will make fabrication of throttle cable brackets and cruise control brackets and no room for the fast idle solenoid.

I already posted about how I for sure wanted the 130 gpm HO water pump. Some "experts" on some sites claim if you run the big pump with a single thermostat it will blow out the freeze plugs and that "GM put the dual thermostats on for a reason and you can trust them." I ordered the 130 gpm pump and got it in last week. It has a 1 inch fitting for the bypass hose to the thermostat housing. The GEP V belt engine had a little 3/4 inch fitting on the top of its water pump. Yet, when we pulled the pump. The impeller was just a 1/4 inch smaller than the 130 gpm pump. GEP has a pump of very similar flow, a smaller bypass tube and a single thermostat. Freeze plugs look ok to me as well. I feel it is very safe to run the big pump with just a single thermostat now.

I didn't know until this week that the V belt and serpentine belt pumps have their own totally different backing plates. I had read about different backing plates for the water pump but thought the difference was related to the size of the pump, not the direction the pump turned. So, a serpentine water pump has to have a serpentine backing plate. Same for the V belt pump to of course.

It is possible with a little bit of grinder work to run the dual thermostat cross over with the older serpentine belt set up and again, with a little bit of grinder work to run the single thermostat cross over with the newer set up. I thought because of the huge bypass hose outlet on the 130 gpm pump I was going to be forced to run the dual thermostat cross over. Nope, the single 1993 cross over has the same size hose end on it. Maybe all serpentine belt cross overs have the bigger hose? I don't know since I have only personally seen two. The GEP cross over bypass hose fitting matches the GEP pump outlet of 3/4".

That gets me to yes for serpentine belt system, yes to the 130 gpm water pump and yes for a single thermostat cross over. What about alternators? As mentioned above, the older serpentine set up put the alternator on the drivers side. Which means the a/c compressor will be next to the turbo. The newer set up is switched. But, the newer set up has the ready made brackets to add a second alternator on the drivers side of the a/c compressor. What to do?

My older belt set up had the brackets and a Sanden a/c compressor. I am adding rear a/c to the Cowdog and have pieced together all the lines from donor trucks to where just the end fitting at the compressor has to be changed if the compressor is on the passenger side. Very simple, cheap I hope and easy. Adding a few inches of wire to the alternator is super easy as well.

The 1997 set up is made for a GM HS6 compressor. They have a terrible reputation. Sanden makes a bolt in model for a few hundred dollars. However, then I have to get the a/c lines across or around the front of the engine. I really don't want a/c lines in the way of radiator work, fan work or checking the power steering fluid level. Plus, I doubt the longer lines will be cheap or easy.

That leaves me without an easy add on second alternator though. I am going to make the truck all 12 volts and just run one alternator. We will see how it goes. I will however keep a look out for the ambulance alternator kit and prep things to swap over to the newer set up if it is needed.

Having CUCV trucks to pull parts from and several V belt engines on hand. V belts are easier for a 12/24 system and would probably be easier for a straight 12 system too. Hopefully, I will know in a year or so if going serpentine was the correct choice for on the road/trail dependability and reliability.
 

richingalveston

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great info. I am going to start looking for parts but sticking with the cucv system for now. I was aware of the change of backing plate, not aware of the hose changes.

Since I have had my motor out and looked at it, I am wondering why there is not a rear cross over. Most head gasket problems and over heating seam to come from poor flow to back of the heads. It would be easy to pull coolant from back and tee it into the heater core return. Or tee the water pump bypass and input some coolant to the back cross over. Just a thought. It seams it would pressure the block more evenly if it had input from both ends.

another thought I would like to look into is just having custom pully's made for the cucv system where wider flat possibly notched belts could be used.
I think many people here would be interested in a better belt system for their stock cucv and not have to do the serpentine change.

Thank you for the input to the thread. I should have my motor this weekend and plan to get started building it. it will be slow. I have a lot of work to get done over the next month. I still have to purchase the IP, and injectors. I plan to do that this week. I am also ordering some rapco spray cans to get my firewall painted before the motor goes in.

send some pics of the two serp versions side by side if you ever have the opportunity.
Thanks
Rich
 

jnlperformance

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My 94 has an am gen 6500 block. Its great. Make sure you have a manual valve body 4l80 or nv4500 on it first off. As for the serp vs v belt I'd go serp because of the inherit issues of the 6 2 and 6 5. In short the serp is better for the motor and is more robust you can do dual alts.the 96-02 secondary alt mount was weak but if you want to keep your 12 24 which I would then your going to be stuck where im at with the cs130. The 91-95 also had a dual alt option but sucked even worse. Connecting the support from the secondary alt to the frame. Im sure they fell apart fast.go with a 91-95 driver side. 96-02 passenger side. Use both tensioners pass as idiler pulley. Or go with the hummer alt mounts but I've been told by a few that they only have one huge alternator. Can't aay about those. As for the ip.. the ds4 is a nightmare. Will fail. Every time. No matter what youdo. New ip. New pmd. Does not matter. Pmd relocation. Does not matter. Will still fail. Go with marine db2 for62 65 turbo. Regular db2 for n/a.
 

jnlperformance

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And the freeze plugs will be just fine with the high flow pump. Crossover locations overrated. If ur building this... arp studs... forged crank... f luidampr. Do it. Your motor will be much happier in the long run. The 6500 blocks aren't cheap. Don't bust a 2500 dollar block because of an 800 dollar short Change

Also. There are also a lot of copy cat blocks out there. Check the stamping on the valley of the block. Should be casted by navistar
 

richingalveston

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what was your solution on the cs130 isolated ground. did you have to buy the expensive marine one discussed in previous post?

motor looks great.
 

NDT

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Rich did your GEP come in, need to come see if there is a hole in the front timing cover for the crank position sensor used in the civi applications with computer engine management.
 

jnlperformance

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I isolated the ground myself. The cs130 I found was exactly that. The pass side is a d case. Same alt but different case. Better cooling. were gonna find out in the next day or two if it worked or not. If I could replan and do it over I'd go for the hmmwv alt mounts but I don't know too much about those. I think the 27si bolts right in those though. Could just swap pulleys too. As for my 94 it has the am gen 6500 with a ds4 which is how I know the ds4 sucks bad. When im done with this 62 I plan on converting my 94 to the same setup that's on this 62 us in a donor c ucv. I really like the 12 24 system. Another issue with the ds4 is the electrical itself. Why I love the dual 12 24. More juice. Unfortunately there's just not enough juice to power the ds4 harness and all that goes with it with the single 130 Its a nightmare of a harness. It can turn your brand new what should be not so much of a pain in the ass motor into exactly that. Definitely go db2 Marine. All analog setup. I cant stand the newer diesels. Pita and expensive
 

richingalveston

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I am supposed to pick it up tomorrow. It is in Houston. I will be taking pictures and posting it. I will try to get pics of what you need if not, stop by anytime. I don't have to be there. I can have my dad open the barn for you.

Thanks
Rich
 

richingalveston

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please post up the alt info if it works.

I am still stuck with going back with all the cucv stuff for now but eventually will get to the serp system once it is all ironed out and I can get the parts.

Thanks
Rich
 

richingalveston

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I picked up my 6.5 gep today. the motor looks great however I am currently not completely satisfied until I talk to AMG or someone early next week. The block is definitely new it is a 506 casting but I cannot find a Navistar logo on it.
Also no marking on the heads.

I at this time cannot confirm that it is a Navistar cast block. there are knock off chineese blocks out there and some even report Navistar logos on the knock off. I picked it up from the freight company with the person I bought it from and it had what appeared to be an AMG packing slip.

I also picked up the extras I plan to put on motor. timing gear drive, arp head studs, precision rocker arms and fluid dampner.

the motor came with oil pan, oil filter, oil pressure sending unit and it looks like a block heater.

attached are pics. I have to go out of town for weekend so I have to start figuring it out next week.

I am trying to find out what the marking should be on the block I cannot find anything definite on the internet. latest info I am finding is 2007 posts.

hopefully Monday I can clear it up.

Rich
 

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NDT

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Picture #5 is the hole for the crank position sensor used with the evil DS4 computer IP. Thanks for the pic, now I know this engine will work for me. Sure is a good looking engine. The paint marks, bar code sticker, and "506" says US made to me anyway.
 

richingalveston

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just an update -
I am still in a holding pattern with the new motor. At this time, GEP cannot even tell me what markings should be on the block. They believe it should have the Navistar logo but cannot confirm. Per their knowledge, if it has changed it is a recent change. My only contact is through the GEP parts department, and as stated above, they are not sure.

When searching all of the cast numbers, I find the same cast numbers on china parts that they will deliver to your door in 7 days. From their pictures, I cannot tell the difference from my parts.

If anyone has any knowledge of the latest Navistar/gep castings and identification or knows someone or a place to find it then please chime in. I cannot find any post past 2010 about the motors and those all show the Navistar <> logo.

I may be returning this one. I cannot spend this kind of money on a motor and not be able to verify its origin.

thanks,
Rich
 

richingalveston

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New info has now been made available:

Leroy diesel has been very helpful in tracking down the issue.
GEP no longer uses Navistar for their castings. They stopped about 2 years ago. They now use Dalton which appears to be a quality US foundry. This change was made by GEP and they did not notify their suppliers of long blocks.
The optimizer is available at this time only with Dalton cast block and no Navistar logo. I am supposed to be getting an email in the next week or so that explains how Dalton marks their cast. I will send out the info once it is received.

The P400 is not available at this time and probably won't be until march or april. They still have stock of about 2000 Navistar cast but they have not been machined. Apparently they are changing vendors for this also and it will be mid next year before the P400 can be purchased and once the 2000 Navistar cast are gone, the P400 will be a Dalton block without Navistar logo.

2013/2014 was the last of the Navistar Optimizer and the current 2000 block inventory will be the last of the Navistar P400.

I am going to start working on building my motor. I guess I will be the test subject for SS on the new Dalton block.

I will be getting additional documentation but I would like to say that Leroy Diesel has been working in my interest to solve the problem.

At least now the fun can begin.

Thanks
Rich
 

richingalveston

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yes, I actually know where the guy lives since he runs his web strore out of his house.

The reason I went with him was due to being local. It does not matter how big a shop someone has if I can't go see them.

attached is a pic of the casting marks, these match my motor. it is the backwards D with F symbol in a circle that signifies that it is a Dalton block.

My real complaint would be with GEP and not Leroy. Their own parts department did not know they switched manufacturers and neither did some other people I called that sells the motors.

Everyone was still under the impression that Navistar was still doing the cast. I guess I am the first to question the block markings.

I am satisfied it is a GEP original and not a knock off. I also looked up Dalton, and they may be better quality than Navistar, only time will tell.


I have asked for the date code information and I will attach this info once I receive it. I believe the year Dayton started casting for GEP was 2014.

I am going to have to find a plug for the block heater, I was surprised it was included along with oil pump, oil pan, valve covers, oil pressure sending unit and oil filter.

hope this info helps people here.

Thanks
Rich
 

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