PLGR on Ebay Canada ( AN/PSN-11 )

[B3.3T]

"It really makes me mad that these people can wave the flag with one hand while trampling on citizens with both jackboots simultaneously. **** that. You make a mistake - you deal with it. Don't make it everyone else's problem."

Tell that to the BATFE and see how far you get. Maybe ten years. They have been changing their minds for years and know one does anything about it.

 

[Yaivenov]

Umm Gentleman, there is nothing sensitive about that now ancient gps device! In the days of old yes. Heck the new DAGGRs are nothing special. We did a test and civilian models are just as accurate as those in the military.

EMP hardened, ECCM (will continue functioning in an EW environment that would put civlian models out of commission), oh and they can decrypt and derive the correct coordinates when the satellite constellations are broadcasting with intentional positioning errors or when there is no civilian service at all. I'd say that makes them fairly valuable for military use despite their craptastic user interface. Now if garmin would get together with the contractors and make a unit with all those nice .mil features but with the good interface you find on the civi units.... *drool*

( well maybe not the gps strapped to the nose of a warhead, or nuke, naw the nuke doesnt have to be accurate, do a search on old school nuke guidance, nowhere near what I would consider accurate)

Actually those systems are pretty darned good considering. An inertial navigation system (no outside input at all) that will drop you within 400 feet of your target after flying 6000 miles?

 

[Alredneck]

The shielding does help it over the civy model but depending on how close to EW it doesnt work all the time either. ( Thats why I said real world not much better )

400ft after a long flight isnt bad and for the day it was designed was actually really good, but compared to guidance systems of today is nowhere near that level of accuracy. ( Keep in mind comparisons of older systems to todays systems is apple and oranges ) Heck the chinese are still using a upgraded version of terrain guidance on some of their newer medium range missiles. Not that theres anything wrong with.

 

[Yaivenov]

The shielding does help it over the civy model but depending on how close to EW it doesnt work all the time either. ( Thats why I said real world not much better )

400ft after a long flight isnt bad and for the day it was designed was actually really good, but compared to guidance systems of today is nowhere near that level of accuracy. ( Keep in mind comparisons of older systems to todays systems is apple and oranges ) Heck the chinese are still using a upgraded version of terrain guidance on some of their newer medium range missiles. Not that theres anything wrong with.

Yup. It's kind of neat how they did the inertial guidance though. Metal sphere suspended in fluid. Other neat systems used included what amounted to an electro-optical sextant. It actually looked around and oriented itself based on star constelations. Plus I suppose when you're lobbing a 500kt warhead 400 feet is a bullseye. The other bit I like about those systems is they are stand alone. You don't need an artificial satellite constellation to make them work. Reminds me. I should probably get a real sextant some time and brush up on plotting my position with it. Always a handy skill.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

If SA is a factor or wide-field L1 jamming is a factor - PLGR or DAGR are your only options. The argument seems to be that the risk of jamming given current foes isn't worth the pain in the ass of carting around anything heavier or less colorul than the Garmin 60CSX. Plus too many people don't key PLGR or DAGR anyway, which makes DAGR about equivalent to a 1998 Garmin Etrex.

From the field I've heard that PLGR and DAGR aren't as good as civ units when they're not keyed and found that hard to believe. Then I figured out why. Unkeyed PLGR and DAGR don't process military-only WAGE corrections - and don't seem to process civilian WAAS corrections under any circumstances. That means that you're reduced to about 10m accuracy best-case on L1 C/A where your WAAS-enabled COTS Garmin product can get you to within 2.5m or so (ideally.) Someone should really have thought about that at the design stage. (Yes, DAGR will do DGPS and I think PLGR will too...but unless you're surveying or in some fixed or semi-fixed marine environment you're not ever going to have the extra kit necessary.)

(Turns out WAAS only works in CONUS and the Americas, so that's not going to be the 'problem' - at least as far as Iraq and Asscrackistan are concerned...)

SWAGR will up the sexy quotient for those in the field who love portable devices which actually weigh less than a pound and have actual color displays - but it looks like Rockwell Collins won't be able to get enough into the field quickly enough to make everyone happy (ish.) Some point-of-the-spear units have them now, apparently, but I've not heard any feedback.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

So...chances are pretty good that a couple of Ebay auctions got squashed because of this conversation, so I won't be mentioning Ebay sales again on Steelsoldiers. I'm sure they get paid enough to do their *own* homework anyway. I probably should've taken the hint when one of the earliest correspondents pointed out that all the SS 'Ebay' forum threads were removed. Lesson learned. Book closed.

I wouldn't want CID/DIA's job for all the money in the world. There's just no way you can explain to law-abiding Joe and Jane Ebay that the stuff they bought eight years ago at GL makes them criminals. They sure won't remember voting for that. Obviously everyone involved is just trying to do their job...but sometimes...maybe it's worth that second look in the mirror to make sure it's the RIGHT job.

 

[Alredneck]

Yaivenov, Its crazy how they thought up the old systems back then to be able cutting edge tech into reality. I agree about the sextant,, I actually bought one from Harbor frieght a month or so ago. I am trying to find a better one and have seen some Navy sextants on GL every now and then.
Wile, I agree with todays technology being available to the other side, I would just save the weight and that why I used my Magelan. It work just about everywhere I went and only gave me problems when we got near Baghdad. ( This was during the offensive, OIF1 with the 101st ) It seem newer systems are getting more and more technical with broader capabilities, I wrote a post on another forum about a then new jammer we use to carry and actually helped with its intial software. My last tour in 06 I was a Advisor to the Iraqi Army and we worked alot with various Task Force groups, ODAs and Alphabet ORGs. They put a " Prophet " in my truck and we had to take the tech geek out with us so he could do his thing. It is amazing what that thing can do and the newer versions since then. But I said I would not discuss such things in depth, so I wont. You can look up GEN I and II systems up on the net for a lil info on them.

 

[Wile E. Coyote]

Keeping in mind OPSEC considerations...are you saying that WE deployed GPS jammers in theater? Wow. I'm usually fairly hooked up with who did what to whom and where...but...this is news. The **** scary part is so many people out there calling in CAS etc. *were* using civvy kit in spite of regulations so you'd figure jamming would've messed coalition forces up vs. Taliban at something like a 200:1 ratio. What's worse is that I can pciture the brain trust about 400 miles to the rear planning to try the jammers out and believing that every Blue force unit would have a keyed DAGR or PLGR according to regulations and therefore would not be affected. Wow. The Real World really is a totally different place.

(Private reply appreciated if you can't post on-forum. My security clearance is still good!)