Who knows a knowledgeable Hercules Parts Counter Person?

houdel

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OK, here is the deal. This forum, and the Deuce forum, have had an untold number of rants about the dry start condition on the multifuel engine due to the lame, upside down cannister filters that the original designers decided to put on the engine. There have been many expensive, labor intensive solutions suggested ranging from oil prechargers to customized remote spin on filter bases to replace the OE cartridges.

There IS a much simpler and cheaper solution - spin on filter adapters which fit the multifuel oil filter base, and anti drain back spin on filters. Problem solved at minimal expense and effort.

There ARE spin on filter bases which fit the multifuel engine. The LDT465 engine was used on a number of White-Oliver tractors, and they were equipped with spin on filters. I have been trying for months contacting tractor dealers and parts suppliers and all I get in response is "DUH", "WHAT?", "KNOW NOTHING", etc. I did find one dealer who would sell me a complete oil filter base/cooler assembly with spin on adapters for $250, but that is 10% of what I paid for the entire truck.

Since the spin on adapters were OE equipment, there MUST be a record of them someplace, probably a bunch of them sitting on a bench someplace gathering dust, or at least a design drawing of them to make some new ones.

So my question is, who has an inside track to a good Hercules/White/Continental parts counter guy who can come up with the spin on filter adapter part number, and maybe even of few of the adapters themselves?

There is a really knowledgeable person on this forum who should be able come up with a Baldwin anti drain back filter IF we can come up with the spin on filter adapters in the first place.

Cross posted to the Deuce forum.
 

cranetruck

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houdel said:
OK, here is the deal. This forum, and the Deuce forum, have had an untold number of rants about the dry start condition on the multifuel engine due to the lame, upside down cannister filters that the original designers decided to put on the engine. forum.
Like I said in a different post, this is a mil spec engine, designed to work to 40 or more below. The reason for the upside down positioning of the filter canisters is to allow them to drain into the pan where the oil can be heated (think arctic kit) for starts at temps that would otherwise not let it flow at all. For mounting of the filters on the frame (spin-ons etc), the cold weather may not let the oil flow thru them at all and they may not be heated for some time being away from the engine once it starts. It's okay in warmer climates, but think twice about this mod if you live in the North.... Just my two cents, as usual.
 

houdel

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cranetruck said:
Like I said in a different post, this is a mil spec engine, designed to work to 40 or more below. The reason for the upside down positioning of the filter canisters is to allow them to drain into the pan where the oil can be heated (think arctic kit) for starts at temps that would otherwise not let it flow at all. For mounting of the filters on the frame (spin-ons etc), the cold weather may not let the oil flow thru them at all and they may not be heated for some time being away from the engine once it starts. It's okay in warmer climates, but think twice about this mod if you live in the North.... Just my two cents, as usual.
Bjorn, as much as I totally respect and generally agree with the knowledge you share with us, I can't totally agree with this post. I don't know at what temperature 5W, 10W or 15W-40 oil freezes, maybe in the -40F to -60F range, but I doubt it.

Temperatures in my neck of the woods sometimes get in the -20F range, but I'm not going to take the Deuce out for a joy ride at -20F anyhow, that is NOT a joy, especially with a soft top. 0F or above I might consider, but no colder than that.

To get back to your original point - let us assume the ambient temperature is -60F. The engine oil in the pan, thanks to the arctic pan heater, is at some happily warmer temperature. The oil in the non drain back filters is still at -60F.

Now we fire up the Deuce. Warm oil from the pan reaches the -60F oil in the filters. Now this -60F oil is not real excited about flowing, but assuming it is not frozen, it will start to flow. As it starts flowing, it is mixing with the warmer oil being pumped up from the pan and starts flowing faster.

Eventually (as measured in seconds) the cold oil will get forced out of the cannisters and full oil flow will be established. My personal estimation, based on nothing but gut feel, is that the engine will have full oil pressure faster than with a dry start, and most likely within a few seconds of engine firing.

My $0.02. Feel free to jump all over me as you wish. I don't have a freezer that goes to -60F so I can't perform any actual tests. Maybe Gringletaube can jump in here with some more scientific data!
 

houdel

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Re: RE: Re: Who knows a knowledgeable Hercules Parts Counter

red devils dude said:
Lee call the factory my parts guy is good but he always just call's the factory to check whats available and they email him the parts diagrams. p.s here's a link to Hercules and kraft power my parts supplier http://www.herculesengine.com/http://www.kraftpower.com/hercules/herculesprods.html
Thanks for the links. After hundreds of phone calls over the past several months I was finally able to establish (according to one of the people on your list) that the White-Oliver tractors did NOT use spin on adapters, they used a specific oil filter base machined to accept the spin on filters.

So we are back to square one. Looks like the only options for now are to use the White-Oliver base (at a cost of mucho bucks), use the cut down cannisters with hose fittings and remote spin on filter bases, or find someone willing to machine a flat adapter to go in place of the cannister base which will accept spin on filters.
 

Banshee365

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Do any of u guy's run lucas oil stabilizer to help the dry starts? My truck takes about 5 seconds to build the pressure up, you can hear it in the turbo when the oil starts flowing. I know alot of truckers use the lucas stuff, wandering how popular it is in the deuce.

-Kelly
 

m139h2otruck

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I have just started to use the Lucas oil additive in my 5.9 R/T Dakota pickup, our D6M dozer and now in the water truck. With 90,000 miles on the R/T, was using 1 1/2 quarts of oil between oil changes at 4,000 mile intervals. Now using less than a quart. D6M was using a gallon every two days of very hard use, now at one gallon a week. No results yet on h2o truck. Seems to work as they claim, but then STP was also a cure-all to eveything wrong in your engine in the 60's.

I still maintain that the electrical gages in these trucks are always suspect and the only way any of us can accurately check the oil pressure to time relationship is to use direct coupled gages.
 

builder77

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Don't forget that there is a bypass valve in the filter base that will ensure that there is oil flow even if the filters are reluctant to flow due to cold. With the modern filters the oil will be much cleaner anyways, so a little more time at startup with bypassed filters should not be a problem.
 

LC

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Worthington Ag Parts has several White 2-135 tractors for salvage. I didn't call to check the price but if you want spin on filters that looks to be the way to go.
 

houdel

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nickd said:
What is the catalog number for the white oliver spin on adapters?
From what I have been told so far (which may be a complete lie) the White -Oliver Engines used a unique oil filter base machined for spin off filters, and thus did not use a separate adapter. I guess I'll have to spend $250 to buy an original White-Oliver filter base and oil cooler and see if some enterprising soul here on SS can find a way to create a spin on adapter which will work with the stock LDT465 oil filter base.

Banshee365 - I use the Lucas oil additive, but still have a 15 second or so wait for the cannister filters to fill.

LC - do you have a contact number for Worthington AG Parts?
 

builder77

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Find out what filter fits that base. It my be some oddball filter that is not made with the newer better filter media. If you can get a good filter for it then I would say it is a good buy at $250. If not then you are not really solving any of the problems that are causing the interested in upgrades.
 

OPCOM

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I use the lucas oil stabilizer, 1 gallon jug at oil change time. not sure how it stops dry starts, and the oil pressure still takes 15 seconds to build up. I do notice less noise from the engine during the no-oil period.

I also believe that cranking for a few seconds before starting to at least get some oil into the system helps avoid having the engine running and beating the bearings to death without oil for as long. Could as usual be wrong.
 

littlebob

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Haven't put alot of thought into it yet .but I thought they had electric pumps that were installed in some cars that would build pressure before starting and would run for a short time after shutdown to keep turbos from coking the bearings.
littlebob
 

Banshee365

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I wouldn't expect the lucas oil stabilizer to help the pressure build up faster. What I would expect is that the oil would be less reluctant to all down into the sump leaving everything above it dry. With the plastic gears lucas puts into auto parts stores on the counter, you can see how the oil would keep it's place throughout the engine, helping lessing the dry portion of starting.

-Kelly
 

LC

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Just Google Worthington Ag Parts. Click on online salvage. Search under tractor, White, 2135 or 2155. I would want to see one in person before I spent too much money.
 

bottleworks

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houdel said:
I guess I'll have to spend $250 to buy an original White-Oliver filter base and oil cooler and see if some enterprising soul here on SS can find a way to create a spin on adapter which will work with the stock LDT465 oil filter base.
Why do that? Why not just install remote oil filters for aprox the same price? Then you can use Wix's spin-flow filters.
 

JDToumanian

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The "NAPA Gold" spin-on filter that the White 2-155 tractor with the 478 c.i. Hercules engine uses is part number 1458.

Has anyone tried to cross this in a filter book to see if there is a better filter that will fit? There is no "1458XD", and from the picture, it doesn't even look like the 1458 has an anti drain-back valve in it. That could make converting to a tractor oil filter housing a complete waste of time.

Devilman? Anyone? We may be barking up the wrong tree here.

Regards,
Jon
 

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JDToumanian

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It's in a White/Oliver 2-155 tractor, I attached a pic of one. The engine came factory installed in those tractors, and that's the stock filter setup, but the 1458 spin-ons may not be any better than the cartridge style filters... Devilman is out camping with the FL and GA guys this weekend, but if I get a chance I'll go to my local NAPA and see what I can find.
 

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