Another way to Bob a Deuce!

[100dollarman]

Question, I have watched lots of bobbed deuce articles and I own a 1969 m-35 but I am still learning. If you had a choice of choosing the front or rear axle for the bob which would it be? would one have less wear and tear or are they both equal and identical? I would think that a person would choose the best of the two for his/her own truck.

Thats a good question...... I do not know if one would have more wear than the other. We have not picked the front or rear in particular in the past.

 

[chaplain]

Yea, just one of those "advanced" deuce questions, grin
I am just adding to my stockpile of almost worthless information.
God bless,
James

 

[SasquatchSanta]

In reading this thread there seems to be some confusion as to what type of steel is used in the M35 frame. It would be nice to know for certain whether or not it's spring steel. One poster seemed to think it is not. Being able to positively identify the type steel would, IMHO give guidance once and for all as to whether it is safe and therefore advisable to weld on the frames.

Also, from reading this thread it appears that some people feel it is OK to weld on a frame when they are building a truck for their own personal use as compared to buildding it to sell to the public.

I totally disagree with this line of reasoning. If (and I say "IF") welding on a frame could cause a safety issue it shouldn't be done. The reasons are two fold. First, people die and, estates are settled therefore a truck that was built for someone's personal use will no doubt someday end up on the open market where an unknowing new owner could end up with a ticking time bomb. Also, while the person that originally built the truck for his pesonal use is using it he is driving it on roads that our kids and grand kids are also driving on.

I don't mean this to be poiinted at any one individual and I'm not trying to be an old crouch.

Respectfully Submitted,

SS

.

 

[USMC6062]

Read this, deuce frames are not spring steel and not heat treated, they are OK to weld on.

TB-9-2300-247-40 Tactical Wheeled Vehicles: Repair of Frames Manual

 

[jesusgatos]

read this, deuce frames are not spring steel and not heat treated, they are ok to weld on.

tb-9-2300-247-40 tactical wheeled vehicles: Repair of frames manual

great link!

 

[exbrown]

Here is a link that will let you get the entire pdf.

http://brochures.slosh.com/cucv/tb9-2300-247-40.pdf

 

[rat4spd]

In reading this thread there seems to be some confusion as to what type of steel is used in the M35 frame. It would be nice to know for certain whether or not it's spring steel. One poster seemed to think it is not. Being able to positively identify the type steel would, IMHO give guidance once and for all as to whether it is safe and therefore advisable to weld on the frames.

Also, from reading this thread it appears that some people feel it is OK to weld on a frame when they are building a truck for their own personal use as compared to buildding it to sell to the public.

I totally disagree with this line of reasoning. If (and I say "IF") welding on a frame could cause a safety issue it shouldn't be done. The reasons are two fold. First, people die and, estates are settled therefore a truck that was built for someone's personal use will no doubt someday end up on the open market where an unknowing new owner could end up with a ticking time bomb. Also, while the person that originally built the truck for his pesonal use is using it he is driving it on roads that our kids and grand kids are also driving on.

I don't mean this to be poiinted at any one individual and I'm not trying to be an old crouch.

Respectfully Submitted,

SS

.

There's wisdom in that line of thought, however as the devil's advocate, I question, what is there about a deuce that is DOT approved to begin with?

 

[skull bone]

Wow......

 

[wldrbob]

if you knew how many semi trailers had welded frames you would be scared to go on the road .we have been welding these frames so these trailers can pass safety they get welded then gov inspected and back on the road. we also lengthen truck frames and shorten them. its a fairly simple prosses you need the same size frame. cut the truck frame add in say 48 inches double v bolth sides of the frame and add in piece 100 percent penitration weld is needed .then gring the outside weld flat. add fish plate needs to be at least 12 inches longer on both ends . 10 in frame equals 10 in fishplate the plate needs to be at least the same thickness as your web on the frame heavier is better.cut the ends of the fishplate 2 inches back and 45 degrees so the center of your fishplate is 6 in at least there is no welding on this 6 in piece none whatsoever the rest is stitch welded 2in in 6 in top and bottom. then stagered holes are drilled through the plate and frame 5/8 or 3/4 fine thread grade 8 or L9 bolts are used. all cross members must be bolted in no welding this includes new crosmembers for hanger bearings wet kits air tanks etc. add in new length air lines electric wires driveshafts etc and its done bolt holes are usualy about a foot apart depending on whats being added

 

[stumps]

Read this, deuce frames are not spring steel and not heat treated, they are OK to weld on.

TB-9-2300-247-40 Tactical Wheeled Vehicles: Repair of Frames Manual

Interesting read.

It says it is not ok to weld anything that should be riveted to the frame, and that it is not ok to weld on the flanges, corners, or extreme ends of the frame.
(The flange on an automotive frame is that which is not vertical.)

So, let's see how our score card goes thus far: The fillet weld is both on the flange, on a corner, and on the extreme end of the trailer frame.

The manual goes on to talk about the reinforcements necessary to protect the welded area... there are none on this application. I think there should be.

It requires that any welds be done with low hydrogen 7018 rods, using proper technique. This speaks to the hydrogen embrittlement that I discussed early in the thread. They also speak of minimizing the heating of the frame.

Otherwise, it talks about the same talk that is always done for frame repairs.

The whole issue is frames are live structural members. They flex and bend as the truck travels over hill and over dale. They need to be free of stress risers that can cause cracks to form. Welds that are made near edges, or on flanges are virtually impossible to make without creating stress risers, and will usually cause a crack to form... flanges and corners are a high motion area when frames flex.

Frames aren't generally tempered spring steel, or heat treated... and the deuce frame is probably neither. But it is a high tensile strength structural steel alloy, that is work hardened by the act of rolling the sheet steel and bending it into the shape of the frame. This work hardening is incorporated into the strength calculations when the frame is designed. Heating the steel changes the work hardening, and depending on the circumstances can make the heated portion of the frame be anywhere from dead soft to glass brittle.

As the cooks say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The way this, and any other, welded frame is used will go a long ways towards deciding whether it is a success or a failure. If the truck becomes a show queen, or a lawn ornament, it may well last forever. If it becomes a rock climber, or a heavy hauler it might stress the joints in ways they cannot handle... A whole lot of testing and research went into what has become the rules of engagement for frames and frame repairs. A lot of frames were broken before the first deuce was deployed.

-Chuck

 

[jesusgatos]

I don't remember exactly where, but I'm pretty sure that somewhere in that document it says what type of steel the Deuce frames are made of, and it also says that the the Deuce frames are NOT heat-treated (but 5-ton frames are).

 

[55Cameo]

When I bobed my Deuce, I doubled the frames and welded them together then welded plate steel over the welds, extending several inches on either side of the weld. It has seen some serious off-road testing and on-road with no cracks to date. It also has 53" tires and a bit of axle wrap to the point that some 'traction bars' should be added. ( this is with the front Deuce springs in the rear) Now with that said, I believe the spring perches to be cast and should not be welded on, these I drilled and bolted into place with grade 8 hardware. I also didn't cut through and weld the frame back together. Also, not saying that it won't at some point in the future, maybe 200yrs or so, come up with a crack in the welded area if stressed constantly like it has been. But I have welded together many 200+ mph cars for the dragstrip and highways and have never had one crack or come apart.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

There's wisdom in that line of thought, however as the devil's advocate, I question, what is there about a deuce that is DOT approved to begin with?

IMHO the DOT doesn't have anything to do with it. I've not heard of anyone that uses a bobber in an application that requires DOT inspection/certification.

As hard as commercial insurance is to get on these trucks the majority of us couldn't legally haul anything heavy even if we wanted to. As far as I know, the majority, if not all of the bobbers are little more that hobby horses.

What I'm referring to is structural integrity and safety. Maybe there isn't a problem but if there is, especially on something at critical as a frame I feel (IMHO) that it needs to be addressed. The way we address critical issues that "might???" adversly impact the safety of others on this public forum says a lot about us as a group and our responsible custodianship of the hobby.

For what I'm going to say next I may draw some fire. I hope not because I'm not trying to be difficult nor am I referring to any one individual. I've had concerns for quite a while about other modifications that are being performed on bobbers. I'm concerned not only about frame welding which may or may not be problematic but also with the installation of 53" rubber and radical body height/lift modifications. I'm not necessarily saying that these mods are unsafe for a street legal vehicle bcause I don't know if they are or not. It just seems like more and more of these trucks are being build, which is good, but they may be getting more and more radical which is worrysome.

I don't know if there is a solution, or for that fact if there is indeed a problem. I only know that I'm concerned at what I'm seing and --- like I said earlier, "The way we address critical issues that "might???" adversly impact the safety of others on this public forum says a lot about us as a group and our responsible custodianship of the hobby."

Sorry for getting off topic.

 

[rat4spd]

Being safety minded isn't anything to be upset about. As stated though, welding and shortening/ stretching frames is done all the time, and is safe if done properly.

My contention is, that the concern of liability of a frame cracking is a moot point when we are hiding behind the veil of it being a "prior military vehicle."

Single circuit brakes, steering colums that will spear you, and the such are also very valid points to be concerned about, and as a whole represent the majority of potential for accidents and death/injury.

What good is it worrying about the minutiae of a Bob job when the very representation of the truck on the roadway is a liability?

What you are addressing is only a piece of the pie, albeit one with reason to be concerned for. As you say, we all need to be custodians of the hobby.

 

[wldrbob]

custodians i like that and i have seen some mod jobs that are definatly not safe to ride in . ppl are going to do them dosent mean i have to like it.at least get sombody to weld it that has more than 10 minuts exp please.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Being safety minded isn't anything to be upset about. As stated though, welding and shortening/ stretching frames is done all the time, and is safe if done properly.

My contention is, that the concern of liability of a frame cracking is a moot point when we are hiding behind the veil of it being a "prior military vehicle."

Single circuit brakes, steering colums that will spear you, and the such are also very valid points to be concerned about, and as a whole represent the majority of potential for accidents and death/injury.

What good is it worrying about the minutiae of a Bob job when the very representation of the truck on the roadway is a liability?

What you are addressing is only a piece of the pie, albeit one with reason to be concerned for. As you say, we all need to be custodians of the hobby.

The fact that these trucks are prior military vehicles has nothing to do with concerns about radial modifications that are performed on them after they were released by the military. The things (mods) I am concerned about would apply equally if they were performed to period civilian vehicles. The weaknesses you point out are the same as on all trucks of the same period --- including civilian vehicles. Just because newer vehicles have safety upgrades that weren't available earlier doesn't mean the older vehicles are not safe. if you really feel that you might as well scrap all the classic cars and trucks --- everything built before computerized brakes and collapsing steering columns. Don't confuse concern for common sense with throwing the baby out with the bath.

 

[mdmorgan]

So does anyone see a problem with doing a bob this way if it were all bolted together? I really like the idea of using more of the m105 than just the bed.

 

[rat4spd]

I'm not sure you can compare a civilian vehicle which was designed for current standards, (ie., my former 66 Chevelle with only lap belts) to a tactical MV for which safety was a distant concern since they weren't primarily built to be driven on roadways.

But alas we agree on the finer points, so no use arguing over semantics, and yes, my 66 Chevelle was dangerous. A head on in that = death.

 

[100dollarman]

So.... who would like to order one of my "welded frame Bobbed Deuces" ??? Better hurry, they are of limited supply!!!







We need a 'welder' smilie--- maybe a little guy in a welding helmet striking an arc...

 

[stumps]

So does anyone see a problem with doing a bob this way if it were all bolted together? I really like the idea of using more of the m105 than just the bed.

It needs a flitch plate that extends from one frame to the other around about the area where the spring mounts connect. The fasteners for the flitch plate should be in the center area (web) of the frame, not on the flanges. Rivets are preferred.
It also needs a piece of box channel spanning the top of the tunnel cut in the trailer frame cross braces.

-Chuck