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Finally bought a MEP-831a

AfghanVeteran2010

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okay

Ill capture VAC and amps, ill find some smaller items to power up with one heater and we'll see where it like to be output wise.

At 10% derate from elevation thats 2700 watts right?

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DieselAddict

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That's right. Start there and see how it goes.

You can use your voltage adjustment to reduce load. Ease down on the voltage till you get to your target kw. That works here since it's a resistive load.
 

dav5

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It is different but the real issue is having a gauge that is calibrated for a power factor of 0.8 and how that will under report load for a resistive setup.

One of the things I recommend here is to leave the electronic governor alone and run on the mechanical governor until you have the unit making full power without bogging down. You're adding too many variables into the mix.

When you load the unit up you need to take the voltage and current readings and make sure you haven't overloaded it. Sure there are units that will take 3.5kw of load. There are some that won't. Lets find out where yours stands mechanically engine output wise. Depending on its life before you it is quite possible you have some carbon built up around the rings and its robbing you of some compression and as a result engine output power is not up to spec. That can cause black smoke and reduced power. If it won't run at least 3kw for hours and hours on the mechanical governor without bogging down then you still have a mechanical problem. Don't trust the gauges on the machine. Verify your 3kw with your voltage and amp meters.

Altitude absolutely can play a part here. At 3000' MSL you will be about 10% down on power versus 0' MSL.

You've done a lot of good work on the machine. We need to run the engine problems fully to ground before moving on. Strictly my opinion.
I totally agree. One of my 831a's will run 2-1500 watt heaters plus a skillsaw. The other one does 3 kw no problem but bogs down if I go any higher.
I had problems with surging and black smoke and tried to adjust the controller for days on the 2nd unit. I got it to run OK but had continuing magnet release problems. The new GAC controller solved all of the problems but it still won't power much more than 3kw.
 

dav5

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The oil screen on the 2nd machine was totally clogged with crap that looked like ground up kleenex. I had to change the oil 4 or 5 times before I got rid of it. The engine only had 7 hours on it. If it sat for a long time would this account for the goo buidup? Thanks.
 

Guyfang

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The oil screen on the 2nd machine was totally clogged with crap that looked like ground up kleenex. I had to change the oil 4 or 5 times before I got rid of it. The engine only had 7 hours on it. If it sat for a long time would this account for the goo buildup? Thanks.


No, it would not. Someone, sometime, someplace stuck paper, (or something) into the engine. Its a shame you didnt take pictures.
 

DieselAddict

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They are rated at .8pf which is taking into account of the inefficiency of and inductive motor. Wasted energy to magnetic field. Heaters are 1PF resistive load. No lost energy. As chart shows below 15amps at 120vac will have a different watt load due to PF.

15A to watts calculation with voltage of 120V AC

For AC power supply, watts are equal to the power factor times amps times volts.
watts = PF × amps × volts
For resistive load without inductors or capacitors, the power factor is equal to 1:
watts = 1 × 15A × 120V = 1800W
For inductive load (like induction motor), the power factor can be approximately equal to 0.8:
watts = 0.8 × 15A × 120V = 1440W
I hope you don't mind using your post to add a bit more clarifying info.

Power factor is something we use to characterize the difference between how much energy there is in the electrical system versus how much WORK we can get that energy to do. Regardless of the power factor 1 watt of electrical energy is 1 watt of electrical energy. Depending on the type of load we are engaging (motors versus computer power supplies versus baseboard heaters) there are differing amounts of work that can be realized from that 1 watt of input energy. We still had to put enough mechanical energy from the engine to make that 1 watt of electrical energy BUT we can't always get 1 watt of work back out of it. In the case of resistive load, you can. Restive loads are perfect consumers. They use it all. To go into the specifics of why will require a lot of forum space but if you are interested you can do some light reading on reactive loads in power distribution systems and the mitigations for them. You'll be asleep in no time. ;)

So.. What this means is that if we are trying to drive a load that requires 1440w of energy and has a PF of 0.8, that means we will have to generate 1800w of energy with the difference being lost as heat in the system. Yep, 360w of diesel fuel out the window for nothing.

BUT.. Motors now are much better and they have higher power factors. That is good news. Some older types of motors such as shaded pole motors have horrific power factors. The plus side there is they are all low power motors and you'll most commonly see them in old fans. Sorry.. About to go on a tangent there. All of that isn't important for this discussion.

If we take most modern devices we should be between 0.9 and 0.95 PF. Unfortunately these generators have been around for a long time and the standard PF for the gauges has been 0.8 so we are stuck with gauges that read 20% off when measuring a pure resistive load and 5-10% off when measuring normal mixed loads.

What that means to the generators.. In a nut shell it means that the gauges lie. The gauges aren't of the type that can adjust themselves based on the PF of the load. They are calibrated for a PF of 0.8 and thats it. And thats OK so long as you (the generator operator) know the kind of loads you are engaging and can temper in your mind when the generator is working too hard. And this brings me around to tying all this back up.. The best thing to go by here is engine load. If we had a fuel flow meter or a strain gauge on the coupling between the engine and generator head we would have a much better measuring system to know what is going on. Since we don't you need to go by knowing your machine and know when its laboring. This is because the mechanical work of the engine rolls all of the complicated electrical stuff into a single and easy to understand thing - Engine power. That is the true sum of everything downstream.

What were we talking about again?
 

Dwnorton1

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That was what I was trying to explain, even watched about 10 Youtube videos so I could try and explain, but missed mark and likely added to confusion. Thank you Chris for elaborating for all of us. Very well put.

PF is Efficiency of device. I think I have a PF of about .6 :-D Some day i feel like I might be in a reverse power situation, but that is another story......
 

Guyfang

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That was what I was trying to explain, even watched about 10 Youtube videos so I could try and explain, but missed mark and likely added to confusion. Thank you Chris for elaborating for all of us. Very well put.

PF is Efficiency of device. I think I have a PF of about .6 :-D Some day i feel like I might be in a reverse power situation, but that is another story......


Wait untill you get old!! Then you will see a real PF reading!! 00000.01
 

AfghanVeteran2010

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Running it at 21.3A and 105.37 VAC. (VxA=Watts 21.3x105.37= 2244watts. No smoke meter inducates 2.1K. Going to run it at this load for an hour. Unless y'all think I should run it longer, before incressing load by 100 watts every 30min till it smokes or boggs out.

Update: 1 hrs
Ran set at 21.3A and 105.37 VAC for 1 hour. Increased load by 100 watts according to set meter. I am increasing load by adding voltage on POT. Now running at 21.7A and 107.49 VAC. Now at 2332.5 watts, set meter at 2.2K. Lite black smoke observed, seems I may of found the limit of the engine. Going to run for a hour and observe if it clears. If not I may go back to previous load for two hrs or more.

Update: 2 hrs

Smoking was still observed. See first video. Reduced load back to previous see second video for reduced load. Going to run for 2 hrs at previous load. Might get lucky and burn so carbon out of the set, but that's a far shot. 2244watts running load

https://youtu.be/LvHTZt6AypI

Reduced load
https://youtu.be/sEpf-vOG4r4

Update: 4 hrs

Smoking has now been observed current load 2244 watts. Going to increase load to 2500-2700 and observe.




Thanks

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DieselAddict

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These guys do smoke when loaded up. So going by smoke alone isn't the full story. What you'll want to do is to increase load till it bogs down then set your limit 20% under that.
 

AfghanVeteran2010

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Ive just finished finding out where it bogs out at 21.5A x 106.5VAC = 2289.75 Watts. 20% of that is 458 watts so looks like 1831 watts is the limit. Don't know what to say to that lol.
 

DieselAddict

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What I would say to that is the engine does not meet spec for power output.

Is there any way you can put together a compression tester?
 

DieselAddict

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You'll need one for a diesel. The pressure should be several hundred PSI. Then have to make an adapter from an old fuel injector or something like that. For engines with glow plugs you normally use the glowplug port.
 

DieselAddict

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You'll need one for a diesel. The pressure should be several hundred PSI. Then have to make an adapter from an old fuel injector or something like that. For engines with glow plugs you normally use the glowplug port.

Edit - I see they actually have one for a diesel. Cool.
 

AfghanVeteran2010

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You'll need one for a diesel. The pressure should be several hundred PSI. Then have to make an adapter from an old fuel injector or something like that. For engines with glow plugs you normally use the glowplug port.
I do have the old injector, guess strip internals of injector. Plug up low pressure side of it. connect it to high pressure diesel gauge.
 

AfghanVeteran2010

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TOL-97190060 - L40AE-L100AE - Compression gauge

Found this in service manual from yanmar

Category:Engine Parts & Accessories > Yanmar Engines and Parts
Manufacturer: Yanmar
Part Number: TOL-97190060
Description:
ADAPTERPart #TOL-97190060 from Yanmar

Our price: $139.85 - each

I don't think it includes gauge, just adapter.
 
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