FMTV up close

[halftrack]

I wonder why the Army did not go with the Oshkosh MTVR like the Marines did. That is a beast of a truck.

Because the Army is runned by lobbyist. Just like everything else in this country. Wine and dine.

 

[BobS]

I wonder why the Army did not go with the Oshkosh MTVR like the Marines did. That is a beast of a truck.

Because the Army is runned by lobbyist. Just like everything else in this country. Wine and dine.

I hope you are joking....you are, right?

Seriously, MTVR did not exist when the FMTV program was started. Oshkosh declined to participate. The Oshkosh TAK-4 independent suspension and the Marine Corps is what prompted the development-the Army was committed to and "knee-deep to a tall indian" involved with the problems of FMTV from S&S during that time.

Best regards,

Bob

-edited 'cause I can't spell worth a crap.....sorry.

 

[BobS]

Found this in an old magazine...is this what's used on the HEMTTs?

Basically, yes. The original HEMTT suspension was not the airride however-it used rubber blocks for springs, instead of an "airbag".

Best regards,

Bob

-edited to read "rubber" instead of "runner" (dang fumble fingers)

 

[citizensoldier]

Four words
KISS..... Keep It Simple Stupid

 

[FreightTrain]

Is it just me or does that truck look like one of the jobbers driving though the country where Bubba bought a POS truck and some krylon and made it up into a wanna be MV?Also,I would have to be the poor SOB involved in a crash with one of those.They look like the modern version of the VW microbus."In the event of a frontal collison,the Drivers legs will be the first line of defense".As for the easier to drive.....I am sorry,If your too dang Stupid to Drive a Manual Trans mission then you really too stupid to have an automatic weapon.All these trucks are is the bare minimum to get around the EPA,DOT,blaa blaa blaa.Shouldn't the armed forces be totally exept from all that crap anyway?Who cares if the militaries trucks smoke,don't have crumple zones,Cats,air bags,fancy side markers that act as turn signals and blink to the beat of the sugar plum fairy.What next,we are gonna be required to have clean bombs and Cats on rifles to clean the air......

 

[BobS]

Four words
KISS..... Keep It Simple Stupid

hehehe...please take that to TACOM and let them know what it means....

Best regards,

Bob

 

[halftrack]

I wonder why the Army did not go with the Oshkosh MTVR like the Marines did. That is a beast of a truck.

Because the Army is runned by lobbyist. Just like everything else in this country. Wine and dine.

I hope you are joking....you are, right?

.

Yes, for the most part. It was meant to be sarcastic.

 

[BobS]

Is it just me or does that truck look like one of the jobbers driving though the country where Bubba bought a POS truck and some krylon and made it up into a wanna be MV?Also,I would have to be the poor SOB involved in a crash with one of those.They look like the modern version of the VW microbus."In the event of a frontal collison,the Drivers legs will be the first line of defense".As for the easier to drive.....I am sorry,If your too dang Stupid to Drive a Manual Trans mission then you really too stupid to have an automatic weapon.All these trucks are is the bare minimum to get around the EPA,DOT,blaa blaa blaa.Shouldn't the armed forces be totally exept from all that crap anyway?Who cares if the militaries trucks smoke,don't have crumple zones,Cats,air bags,fancy side markers that act as turn signals and blink to the beat of the sugar plum fairy.What next,we are gonna be required to have clean bombs and Cats on rifles to clean the air......

You get no argument from me....but as I stated to citizensoilder, TACOM is the one to talk to about that. All I can do as a vehicle design engineer is meet the requirements laid down by TACOM, EPA, NHTSA, NFPA, and others, regardless of my personal feelings......

Best regards,

Bob

 

[emr]

Bob You are wealth of information, Glad to hear the facts,It seems most of the bad opinions are from those who are judging from a distance .Bob yours are the real facts."My" opinions are based on seeing touching and driving, , and from the guys here using them, some mechanics here say "jeez i feel like a kid again needing to learn all this new stuff, "Then another mechanic comes over and says , actually they are easier to work on , the diagnostics are simple and they are awesome trucks" so that is about it,I say Change is good and much needed. I am glad they/we are not living in the past, can everything be better? YUP.But i bet anyone of us designing a truck for them would not have the perfect truck either. we may think so , but i doubt it...Randy

 

[BobS]

Bob You are wealth of information, Glad to hear the facts,It seems most of the bad opinions are from those who are judging from a distance .Bob yours are the real facts."My" opinions are based on seeing touching and driving, , and from the guys here using them, some mechanics here say "jeez i feel like a kid again needing to learn all this new stuff, "Then another mechanic comes over and says , actually they are easier to work on , the diagnostics are simple and they are awesome trucks" so that is about it,I say Change is good and much needed. I am glad they/we are not living in the past, can everything be better? YUP.But i bet anyone of us designing a truck for them would not have the perfect truck either. we may think so , but i doubt it...Randy

Thanks for the undeservedly kind words.

Just remember one thing, I damn sure don't know it all either, even after 30 years of designing trucks and cars-I need to have feedback from the end users to correct any problems they find in the field. That being said, ask Joaquin Suave about "Libby"-that was the GM/MVO truck prototype that entered against the S&S FMTV. I was the lead design engineer on that truck, and Joaquin's truck still has some of my handwriting on the oilpan in steel pen marker....

Best regards,

Bob

 

[El_Guapo]

The soft suspension reminds me of the time my company was building a collating machine for the air force extension courses. The air force wanted the machine to not exceed 75dB. We tried to tell them it was a ridiculous number. It was only after we took a sound meter into a meeting and interrupted them every time they went over 75dB that they changed the spec to 80dB.

 

[citizensoldier]

Bob You are wealth of information, Glad to hear the facts,It seems most of the bad opinions are from those who are judging from a distance .Bob yours are the real facts."My" opinions are based on seeing touching and driving, , and from the guys here using them, some mechanics here say "jeez i feel like a kid again needing to learn all this new stuff, "Then another mechanic comes over and says , actually they are easier to work on , the diagnostics are simple and they are awesome trucks" so that is about it,I say Change is good and much needed. I am glad they/we are not living in the past, can everything be better? YUP.But i bet anyone of us designing a truck for them would not have the perfect truck either. we may think so , but i doubt it...Randy

Thanks for the undeservedly kind words.

Just remember one thing, I dang sure don't know it all either, even after 30 years of designing trucks and cars-I need to have feedback from the end users to correct any problems they find in the field. That being said, ask Joaquin Suave about "Libby"-that was the GM/MVO truck prototype that entered against the S&S FMTV. I was the lead design engineer on that truck, and Joaquin's truck still has some of my handwriting on the oilpan in steel pen marker....

Best regards,

Bob

If I come accross as critical I dont mean to. I am just going by my exsperiance with the new stuff. Too much is not advancement either. Some of these simple little sayings have HUGE meaning and need to be followed. If we ever had a battle and lost some big numbers of our special trained troops we would not be able to train new ones fast enough for this type of equipment. "Here is a rifle boy and there is the enemy now go kill him ! But if the truck quits you are screwed because the oxygen censior flashed out and the enemy set off a electro magnetic bomb and now all things electrical dont work.."
In Vietnam the enemy used very simple things and would defeat us. In Iraq they are doing the same thing.." Sorry for the babble.. Having a long week..

 

[BobS]

Bob You are wealth of information, Glad to hear the facts,It seems most of the bad opinions are from those who are judging from a distance .Bob yours are the real facts."My" opinions are based on seeing touching and driving, , and from the guys here using them, some mechanics here say "jeez i feel like a kid again needing to learn all this new stuff, "Then another mechanic comes over and says , actually they are easier to work on , the diagnostics are simple and they are awesome trucks" so that is about it,I say Change is good and much needed. I am glad they/we are not living in the past, can everything be better? YUP.But i bet anyone of us designing a truck for them would not have the perfect truck either. we may think so , but i doubt it...Randy

Thanks for the undeservedly kind words.

Just remember one thing, I dang sure don't know it all either, even after 30 years of designing trucks and cars-I need to have feedback from the end users to correct any problems they find in the field. That being said, ask Joaquin Suave about "Libby"-that was the GM/MVO truck prototype that entered against the S&S FMTV. I was the lead design engineer on that truck, and Joaquin's truck still has some of my handwriting on the oilpan in steel pen marker....

Best regards,

Bob

If I come accross as critical I dont mean to. I am just going by my exsperiance with the new stuff. Too much is not advancement either. Some of these simple little sayings have HUGE meaning and need to be followed. If we ever had a battle and lost some big numbers of our special trained troops we would not be able to train new ones fast enough for this type of equipment. "Here is a rifle boy and there is the enemy now go kill him ! But if the truck quits you are screwed because the oxygen censior flashed out and the enemy set off a electro magnetic bomb and now all things electrical dont work.."
In Vietnam the enemy used very simple things and would defeat us. In Iraq they are doing the same thing.." Sorry for the babble.. Having a long week..

I did not take your comments personally, they are the exact same thing I have been screaming about for years in project reviews. Unfortunately, there is still the McNamara legacy that is pervasive in TACOM (among others). BTW- I was class of 70-73 (3 tours) so I know wherefore of you speak about the SEA wargames.

Just to clear a couple of misconceptions, an O2 sensor will not cause the engine to stall out and at the classified levels of EMP protection built into the systems by default (one of the original requirements) I doubt that a tactical device would disable the electronics, excepting a direct hit on the truck. I have to give credit where credit is due-TACOM did set some valid specs for the doodads and geegaws they wanted to ensure functionality.

Best regards,

Bob

 

[Joaquin Suave]

BOBS an opinionated ASS!

He just happens to one of the MOST brilliant and knowledgeable opinionated ass's that I've met in my life!

He he he...

I started reading at the beginning of of the post so that I didn't mis-direct the rant I'm about to spew out. I feel that I'm speaking out of experience because I own an LMTV... Though it was a prototype from one of the companies that didn't get the contract (and yes, Bob's graffiti in all ove it). Like bob, I make my living designing, developing, & prototyping complicated devices, but un-like him...My interest in medium heavy-duty all-wheel drive vehicles is merly hobby...A component of my desire to spend a lot of time surfing & living confortably on remote beaches in Mexico.


What ever happened to the Army of one?

i'm sure many of have read the thread i started about the problem that I've over come with libelula's MD3070 transmission. I'm prowd that I was able to get libelula driving again...
But I'm scared to death to drive her around the block! Take her to Baja? NO FRICKEN WAY!!! I spent most of last month on the beach in Baja, and one evening I had a little talk with myself and surmised...Jack, If you can't be SURE that you can ABSOLUTELY repair your vehicle where it breaks down___OR___ Be able to have it towed by a wreaker to closest "big" truck shop in Mexico for repair...Then my LMTV is a total waste of time & money!

So now, $3500. & several hundred of my hours later...I'm going to pull the MD3070 and replace it with a mechanical shift Allison MD653 & Rockwell t-case, then buy spares of each ( strapped to pallets / wrapped in plastic) & ready for DHL. Should I need them, they are just a sat-phone call away.

What does this have to do with the "Army of one" ?

The fact is that I HAVE to be an Army of one when adventuring in baja and have to except that fact! What blows my mind is how "our world" (more than just our gov. or the DOD) has "bought into" the idea that with a good enough infra-structure that we could over-come a persons (or peoples) lack of common sense. It reminds me of ship builders that said...The titanic! That b*tch is un-sinkable!

I'd rest a lot easier at night if I knew that our young troops could open the hood of a truck and "cobb it" to get back home, rather than have to count on a technicion being dispatched to get them out of harns way.

 

[citizensoldier]

Ok, Ok.. How about a crank shaft timing sensor.. LOL... Wrong sensor.. And from what I have been told by my uncle a retired 25 year army man that worked on tactical nukes in Germany for years.. We have bombs and have had bombs that can be set off that fry everything electrical for a pre determined radius. What if the enemy perfects this technology? Nothing electrical will work it is smoked imediately. I wonder if a F-18 will still fly by wire if such a wave hits it? Computer toast, gensets toast, gas engines toast, radar toast, money machine at the bank toast, check out at the grocery toast, and so on.. LOL Just food for thought.. I think I would be more worried about something like this other than a dirty bomb or nuke..

 

[cranetruck]

The FMTV specs called for a maximum of 15 watts input at the driver's H-point. For comparison (over a flat road, 4x4 cement blocks spaced alternately at 6 foot centers, road speed 20mph)....
Bob

Just curious, but how does the tire design/inflation effect this?

 

[BobS]

The FMTV specs called for a maximum of 15 watts input at the driver's H-point. For comparison (over a flat road, 4x4 cement blocks spaced alternately at 6 foot centers, road speed 20mph)....
Bob

Just curious, but how does the tire design/inflation effect this?

The 15W spec is again, measured at the driver's H-point (roughly equivelent to the hip centerline across the seat, of a 95th percentile male in the driver's seat). The input is measured at that point, so all components and forces are combined into a resultant vector and force.

The point is that, yes the tire construction & tire pressure (combined into a "tire spring rate"), speed, bump height, suspension travel in jounce, shock damping, primary suspension spring rate, etc. all combine to form the forces and directional vector. The 15W is the maximum in a "Z" axis vector (straight up, normal to the ground, or put another way, away from the direction of gravity). This means that, if the input vector is not mechanically vertical (let's say it was fore and aft along the vehicle centerline), the power can be increased (stiffer springs, bias ply tires, stiff shocks, stc.) until the vertical component of the force measures 15W.

This is one explanation of why "figures don't lie, but liars figure".

Best as always,

Bob

 

[emr]

I believe Bob mentions an EMP protection in the deisign...& Joaquin, I doubt that most 88Mikes could cob anything together anyway...as a bunch of 18 year olds, they would be far and inbetween,And the Kids in Vietnam did not either...Some of u guys make the pic of some Army drivers swaping parts on the road?? rare to say the very very least., We look at this with 20 to 30 years experience with large trucks, and say hey those kids could do this, NOOO they can't, i know an awful lot of them and they can't ,I do not think Your truck is a fair evaluation of the finished product by any stretch either.I am amazed how simple most suggest things should be then drool over that over enginered piece of machinery the Marines use...My Lord that thing is getting absolutly NOOO field expedient work in the field under fire my friend, and it is 2008 not 1968, SORRY we race thru country's and have service centers thruout, today and this is a fact,>> U HOOKUP and RUN or BURN it where it stands, THAT IS REALITY> As an avid 4byer I will say a straight axle and simplicity is the true measure, And everyone with all those opinions like the oxy sensor deadlining the truck in transit as usual were and are not true, either,Whew,I for one will say it again, it is a good truck for the buck.alot of thought is easily seen thru out the design.It has an awesome drivetrain, and a ride someone can live with... less fatigue...and drive with very little training. ...Randy

 

[dc3coyote]

To be contarary, I like the looks of the MTV, and LMTV, An MTV would be real cool next to my Pinz.
I could paint them both tan and call them my retarded peanuts.
Oh yea remember that todays kids 23 and younger are more comfortable with a computer telling them what to do, and how to dio it.

 

[BobS]

I believe Bob mentions an EMP protection in the deisign...& Joaquin, I doubt that most 88Mikes could cob anything together anyway...as a bunch of 18 year olds, they would be far and inbetween,And the Kids in Vietnam did not either...Some of u guys make the pic of some Army drivers swaping parts on the road?? rare to say the very very least., We look at this with 20 to 30 years experience with large trucks, and say hey those kids could do this, NOOO they can't, i know an awful lot of them and they can't ,I do not think Your truck is a fair evaluation of the finished product by any stretch either.I am amazed how simple most suggest things should be then drool over that over enginered piece of machinery the Marines use...My Lord that thing is getting absolutly NOOO field expedient work in the field under fire my friend, and it is 2008 not 1968, SORRY we race thru country's and have service centers thruout, today and this is a fact,>> U HOOKUP and RUN or BURN it where it stands, THAT IS REALITY> As an avid 4byer I will say a straight axle and simplicity is the true measure, And everyone with all those opinions like the oxy sensor deadlining the truck in transit as usual were and are not true, either,Whew,I for one will say it again, it is a good truck for the buck.alot of thought is easily seen thru out the design.It has an awesome drivetrain, and a ride someone can live with... less fatigue...and drive with very little training. ...Randy

Be careful there.....

Seriously, MTVR and FMTV are 2 programs that are only superficially related...that is, they are both classified as "tactical trucks". That's as far as the mission requirements are common. FMTV could never meet (regardless of S&S' attempts) the MTVR requirements, and likewise MTVR could never meet the FMTV requirements.

Now, that being said, the word "requirements" comes from the RFQ and mission profiles laid out by TARDEC and TACOM, NOT the field commanders meaning of the word "requirements". I am not saying one is better than the other, or blasting one as worse than the other-they are simply apples and oranges.

Failure to understand the defined requirements (in my experience, NEVER handed out to the troopers in the field) is the root cause of mission failure.

Case in point-armoring the FMTV cabs. Sorry to those that disagree with the following, by definition (TACOM's original RFQ specifications and requirements, not mine) tactical trucks are NOT to be armored-that is the reason for the existance of an M2/3 Bradley, LAV-25, Cougar, Grizzly, etc.

Now guys-dont't go yelling "We dont have them and we have to build out own" and similar comments. It doesn't matter. As a vehicle designer, I have to make a LOT of compromises in the design of a vehicle-wheeled OR tracked (yes I have worked on tracks also...another story for another day). I cannot just change the RFQ requirements laid down by TACOM-I have to meet those specifications and requirements, at the lowest possible cost or the company loses the contract to build and possibly, a greater number of people die due to an inferior design that is cheaper.

FMTV was NEVER INTENDEDto have any armor attached, of any type-this was added to the trucks long after all the vehicles had been designed. You simply cannot add 5-`10K lbs of various types of ballistic armor to these trucks without the trucks disassembling themselves, breaking parts, having excessive fuel consumption, and all sorts of other fun things. MTVR, being a far later (or "newer" if you will) program, such kits were initially required, designed, and implemented in the initial design of the vehicle FROM THE OUTSET.

Hopefully I have not angered anyone "on the sharp end" with my comments, but I felt these words were necessary for those left out of the loop to understand why things are the way they are.

As far as Joaquin's comments, I believe he was referring to his application of LMTV that he has, and frankly, for his application, I agree. All those doodads and geegaws are (with the exception of the CTIS) unnecessary and a detriment to those that use such a vehicle in the manner he does. Out in the boonies, watching the tide come in and the surf getting ready to bury your home is not the time for a computer to crap out and lock the vehicle to the location it is sitting in. In this case, yes, manual transmissions, non-electronic engines, springs instead of air bag suspensions, and things of this type are easier to repar by yourself.

Best as always,

Bob