frodobaggins
Active member
- 2,861
- 16
- 38
- Location
- Ruston, La
Now take off your HHO system and leave the other mods in place. You will get better than you are now, as well as still be ruining your engine.
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
hho injection?
- Thread starter jdeoliveira74
- Start date
- Status
Now take off your HHO system and leave the other mods in place. You will get better than you are now, as well as still be ruining your engine.
Stalwart
Well-known member
- 1,739
- 33
- 48
- Location
- Redmond, WA
On a gasoline engine you CANNOT safely decrease the fuel flow for a given mass air flow beyond a certain point. Computer controled EFI systems already run about as lean as safely possible, some use fuel cooling enrichment for full throttle (especially forced induction) but fuel flow is of secondary importance then. This "fooling the O2 sensor" will cause an excessively lean condition. In a Diesel it will not be detrimental, just a waste of money and time.
I've gone to YouTube and seen what a SCAM this HHO thing is! Actually I knew it was a scam before, but it made me smile. I can't believe how gullible some people are.
ODdave
New member
- 3,213
- 38
- 0
- Location
- lansing michigan
If you where to put magnets on the lines feeding the HHO, you know, like the ones on your fuel lines, would that help increase you milage even more? How about one of those tornado things? In theory, if you had a non-turbo deuce you could use that with the hho and probably get 20-25 mpg
“Heads up” on HHO injections.
Our non-profit “Monroe Marauders Inc.” in keeping with the premise of this excellent site will be conducting HHO tests and sharing the findings with you all very soon.
Background: We’ve ran the garment and started “alt-fuel” investigation here when a good friend (now a member) built our first Keys WVO refinery several years back in Key West (pre-club starting.) Due to its success we’re now in the process of building another in the mid-Keys for our disaster response teams use in the event we’re slammed by another hurricane and “left on our own” w/o support or fuel supplies.
We’ve also of experimented for years with “Blends” using contaminated Jet-A (our shop is on the cities airport,) old motor oil, WVO and most anything else that will burn (except our rum!
We’ve also been playing awhile with small Fuel-Cells mounted on mobile carts, feeding HHO to our small engines & GenSets successfully so we’re now ready to install a “Deuce-use” Fuel-Cell into one of our trucks to start testing its feasibility as a viable fuel supplement.
We’ll be sharing our fabrication, installation and results (of our small engine unit) at the upcoming Blue Angels Air Show in Key West next month (our Clubs been invited to put on a static display there by the Navy.) After that we’ll be transferring our system (display model) to the test-truck and installing MAP/CHT/EGT’s etc to record our results and develop a trend analysis.
Note: Another system we’ve found useful here and have incorporated into our rigs (live in the Keys w/sun daily) are solar roof panels. They’re good for keeping our truck batteries up (used on boats down here allot) plus allows for charging of electronics (laptops, phones/GPS chargers etc.) during a the aftermath of a disaster until power comes back on.
We’re pretty excited and looking forward to installing, documenting and then sharing our HHO injection trials w/the military vehicle community. We’ll try adding new power sources like solar, added Eng.Gens, & home built mag-motors to increase amperage to our DryCell system.) Should be a fun exercise if nothing else but we feel pretty optimistic as our smaller experiments show positive results (hence giving this a try.)
The tech is young and unproven but our organization (as a non-profit) is in a position to get sponsorship to help finance some of the research.
We’ll be sharing our findings with our fellow members so any input or constructive thought will be welcome and responded to.
Our website isn’t ready yet (comes online end of March just before the airshow) but our Face-book site will give anyone interested an idea of what we’re doing with our trucks and jeeps down here.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monroe-Marauders-Inc/195578493920611
If any of you are at the Airshow please look us up: http://airshowkeywest.com/
Marauders promote the Education, Restoration, & Preservation of Historic Military and Emergency Vehicles for use serving our community during times of disasters and they are the Middle Keys CERT (Civilian Emergency Response Team) using our trucks during hurricanes for rescue and recovery. We are a non-profit.
Our non-profit “Monroe Marauders Inc.” in keeping with the premise of this excellent site will be conducting HHO tests and sharing the findings with you all very soon.
Background: We’ve ran the garment and started “alt-fuel” investigation here when a good friend (now a member) built our first Keys WVO refinery several years back in Key West (pre-club starting.) Due to its success we’re now in the process of building another in the mid-Keys for our disaster response teams use in the event we’re slammed by another hurricane and “left on our own” w/o support or fuel supplies.
We’ve also of experimented for years with “Blends” using contaminated Jet-A (our shop is on the cities airport,) old motor oil, WVO and most anything else that will burn (except our rum!
We’ve also been playing awhile with small Fuel-Cells mounted on mobile carts, feeding HHO to our small engines & GenSets successfully so we’re now ready to install a “Deuce-use” Fuel-Cell into one of our trucks to start testing its feasibility as a viable fuel supplement.
We’ll be sharing our fabrication, installation and results (of our small engine unit) at the upcoming Blue Angels Air Show in Key West next month (our Clubs been invited to put on a static display there by the Navy.) After that we’ll be transferring our system (display model) to the test-truck and installing MAP/CHT/EGT’s etc to record our results and develop a trend analysis.
Note: Another system we’ve found useful here and have incorporated into our rigs (live in the Keys w/sun daily) are solar roof panels. They’re good for keeping our truck batteries up (used on boats down here allot) plus allows for charging of electronics (laptops, phones/GPS chargers etc.) during a the aftermath of a disaster until power comes back on.
We’re pretty excited and looking forward to installing, documenting and then sharing our HHO injection trials w/the military vehicle community. We’ll try adding new power sources like solar, added Eng.Gens, & home built mag-motors to increase amperage to our DryCell system.) Should be a fun exercise if nothing else but we feel pretty optimistic as our smaller experiments show positive results (hence giving this a try.)
The tech is young and unproven but our organization (as a non-profit) is in a position to get sponsorship to help finance some of the research.
We’ll be sharing our findings with our fellow members so any input or constructive thought will be welcome and responded to.
Our website isn’t ready yet (comes online end of March just before the airshow) but our Face-book site will give anyone interested an idea of what we’re doing with our trucks and jeeps down here.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monroe-Marauders-Inc/195578493920611
If any of you are at the Airshow please look us up: http://airshowkeywest.com/
Marauders promote the Education, Restoration, & Preservation of Historic Military and Emergency Vehicles for use serving our community during times of disasters and they are the Middle Keys CERT (Civilian Emergency Response Team) using our trucks during hurricanes for rescue and recovery. We are a non-profit.
Last edited:
- 9,576
- 210
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
Here we go again.
I checked out the facebook link and it looks like the club is doing some good work. I'd advise you say away from the whole HHO deal though. It just takes too much energy to break down water. It's a proven fact that you're not going to use vehicle engine to do it as you use more energy than it's worth. While solar panels look good on paper you're still not generate enough energy to make much HHO.
I checked out the facebook link and it looks like the club is doing some good work. I'd advise you say away from the whole HHO deal though. It just takes too much energy to break down water. It's a proven fact that you're not going to use vehicle engine to do it as you use more energy than it's worth. While solar panels look good on paper you're still not generate enough energy to make much HHO.
Well M16, we have been using it for over a year, AND had good results with our smaller units, PLUS we get sponsored (based on our past successes) to do the research and its on our own trucks, so what's not to like? Worse case "its a wash." A Energy source isn't an issue (at least not with our system) as the energy we're using to generate the separation is "already being expended" regardless if we use it or not as the alt. belt is always turning anyway and our "free" sun-system is just that "free" plus all we need to produce a good HHO gas flow is 30amps and we're capable of generating 100 anyway, then we're not "wasting" anything, other than the $150 it cost us to build a "dry-cell" system. I Really don't see the resistance to trying? If you got any DATA to support your statements we're all ears, as its that kind of real numbers that help us see where a systems negatives are, so we can try and work around them. Energy source isn't one issue for us as ours runs quite well on the 30-100 amps. Now, will that "almost free" gas source yield any extra milage? or will it produce cleaner exhaust? we don't know but thats what were going to find out. Like I said we'll post our findings (which is what its all about--quantified research) and let the numbers fall where they may. I see your in Tnn, do you ever get down this way? if so please stop in as we love to share and learn for others passing through (as its a bear for us to get up to the mainland from here.)
Last edited by a moderator:
this thing is debated since.. well I still remember that at school we had argument on that.. and I got my diploma in 1993.. anyway, injecting water into engine is nothing new but this is an addition to the main fuel. today it is done in addition with methanol for the same pourpose with the added benefit of lowering the temperature..
hydrogen injection doesent work for various reason, mainly because the energy expended for braking the bonding between oxygen and hydrogen will lower quite badly the overall efficency of the thermodinamyc machine.
what fail to be mentioned every time is that those H-H-O injection system work in addition to the engine, costing more in terms of money, weight to carry around and additional load to the "base" engine than other means of chemical turbocharge of the engine.
what make H-H-O sponsor go nuts is a very simple question: "can you start your engine on H-H-O?" the answer is, in all case but BMW so far (I have not spoken with the engeneer of Toyota about the new project.. but Toyota is not my Customer.. WV, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Fiat group, Peugeot/Citroen all of those are my Customer and I always ask..) NO. Why? Contrary to what many think it is not because hydrogen is difficult to store: the biggest issue is the tendencies of Hydrogen to burn fast, very fast, so fast that it explodes! Now, what happen in the combustion chamber is something that have to be conisidered "the fastest combustion possible before exploding": the fastest this burning process the more calories you extract from the caloric source (I don't know the words in english but diesel is low volatility and gasoline is high volatility... I know how to explain this in Italian, not in English, please forgive me).. well hydrogen is so willing to burn that make this process quite difficult to manage.. according to a couple of guys that was experimenting with Hydrogen only engine: "we shot the pistons.. we literally shot them trough the block!"..
Hydrogen can be added to any engine with some benefit BUT if you have to extract it from water onboard the surce of energy (aka the vehicle alternator) will lower the total output of the system. Better inject nebulized water or water+methanol in the engine, will give you more bangs for the bucks. In diesel sub-culture there was a very big turmoil a couple of year ago for the injection of propane: it seems it is coming back, with newer system with some electronic controller.. will it work? will give real gain to the diesel engine? no idea
I am always on the fence for HHO system but so far I have never seen one that was working good enough to be adopted in mainstreem production line
hydrogen injection doesent work for various reason, mainly because the energy expended for braking the bonding between oxygen and hydrogen will lower quite badly the overall efficency of the thermodinamyc machine.
what fail to be mentioned every time is that those H-H-O injection system work in addition to the engine, costing more in terms of money, weight to carry around and additional load to the "base" engine than other means of chemical turbocharge of the engine.
what make H-H-O sponsor go nuts is a very simple question: "can you start your engine on H-H-O?" the answer is, in all case but BMW so far (I have not spoken with the engeneer of Toyota about the new project.. but Toyota is not my Customer.. WV, BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Fiat group, Peugeot/Citroen all of those are my Customer and I always ask..) NO. Why? Contrary to what many think it is not because hydrogen is difficult to store: the biggest issue is the tendencies of Hydrogen to burn fast, very fast, so fast that it explodes! Now, what happen in the combustion chamber is something that have to be conisidered "the fastest combustion possible before exploding": the fastest this burning process the more calories you extract from the caloric source (I don't know the words in english but diesel is low volatility and gasoline is high volatility... I know how to explain this in Italian, not in English, please forgive me).. well hydrogen is so willing to burn that make this process quite difficult to manage.. according to a couple of guys that was experimenting with Hydrogen only engine: "we shot the pistons.. we literally shot them trough the block!"..
Hydrogen can be added to any engine with some benefit BUT if you have to extract it from water onboard the surce of energy (aka the vehicle alternator) will lower the total output of the system. Better inject nebulized water or water+methanol in the engine, will give you more bangs for the bucks. In diesel sub-culture there was a very big turmoil a couple of year ago for the injection of propane: it seems it is coming back, with newer system with some electronic controller.. will it work? will give real gain to the diesel engine? no idea
I am always on the fence for HHO system but so far I have never seen one that was working good enough to be adopted in mainstreem production line
- 9,576
- 210
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
I think I've sated it earlier in this very thread but I'll say it again, there is no such thing is a alternator free ride. If you draw any electrical energy out of a alternator, you have to put that much mechanical energy into it plus some losses for friction and heat. You add that it takes more energy to break down water than it produces, you end up will a loosing proposition.
The only thing that makes HHO remotely feasible is to use some sort of "free" energy source to break down the water (as in solar). Even then it's a very inefficient setup. You'd have more gains using the solar panels to power the electrical needs of the vehicle (ignition, lights, etc).
Read up on the first law of Thermodynamics as to why you won't see any gains making HHO with the vehicle electrical system.
The only thing that makes HHO remotely feasible is to use some sort of "free" energy source to break down the water (as in solar). Even then it's a very inefficient setup. You'd have more gains using the solar panels to power the electrical needs of the vehicle (ignition, lights, etc).
Read up on the first law of Thermodynamics as to why you won't see any gains making HHO with the vehicle electrical system.
A. the entire weight of our system is 18 lbs. My dog weights 4 times that and that doesn't keep me from letting him ride. So weight is not an issue
B. We're not storing HHO so safety is not an issue, we make is as we use it
C. As we're injecting (mixing) pre-turbo in a small ratio with whatever "Blend" we're running "cooling" isn't an issue. Especially down here where were running hot all the time anyway
D. An Alt/Gen belt is ALWAYS dragging, always running, always under friction and adding "drag" to the system, so its a "none issue" about energy loss. Your getting that loss wether you pull juice out of it or not. The compressor of an AC "kicks in and out" so THAT would be an issue but we're not talking AC
E. Our GenSets DO run off HHO directly no matter what your theory says which is why we're now going to see how that works on a larger engine and why we got funding, we showed it warrants further study.
F. A lot of tech has chanced since 1993 and dry-cell tech (small, the ones we built are about 6"x6" with 90 plus plates and w/water weight just under 18lbs.) so tech has advanced
But all this, is in fact redundant, as we're going to perform the tests, because "we're curious" "we've had success on smaller engines" and "we're always trying to advance and find alt. ways of increasing HP/Cleaner burn. All we're stating here is we're going to share our findings Good or Bad, if it Works or Not with this group. That's America, the right to pursue.., as long as your not screwing over someone else. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monroe-Marauders-Inc/195578493920611
B. We're not storing HHO so safety is not an issue, we make is as we use it
C. As we're injecting (mixing) pre-turbo in a small ratio with whatever "Blend" we're running "cooling" isn't an issue. Especially down here where were running hot all the time anyway
D. An Alt/Gen belt is ALWAYS dragging, always running, always under friction and adding "drag" to the system, so its a "none issue" about energy loss. Your getting that loss wether you pull juice out of it or not. The compressor of an AC "kicks in and out" so THAT would be an issue but we're not talking AC
E. Our GenSets DO run off HHO directly no matter what your theory says which is why we're now going to see how that works on a larger engine and why we got funding, we showed it warrants further study.
F. A lot of tech has chanced since 1993 and dry-cell tech (small, the ones we built are about 6"x6" with 90 plus plates and w/water weight just under 18lbs.) so tech has advanced
But all this, is in fact redundant, as we're going to perform the tests, because "we're curious" "we've had success on smaller engines" and "we're always trying to advance and find alt. ways of increasing HP/Cleaner burn. All we're stating here is we're going to share our findings Good or Bad, if it Works or Not with this group. That's America, the right to pursue.., as long as your not screwing over someone else. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monroe-Marauders-Inc/195578493920611
nk14zp
Active member
- 2,636
- 17
- 38
- Location
- Columbia Falls Maine
When the regulator tells the alternator to charge it takes more hp to turn the alternator. Just like an ac comp uses more hp.
MarcusOReallyus
Well-known member
- 4,524
- 811
- 113
- Location
- Virginia
Snake oil alert!
First of all, there's no such thing as "hho".
When you break down water you just get a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. That's not a new chemical called "hho", it's just a mixture.
This bogus term is repeated by the honestly ignorant, but was probably invented by the DIShonestly ignorant in order to fool the honestly ignorant.
Anytime someone starts talking about "HHO" they are either demonstrating their ignorance of junior-high school chemistry or they are dishonest.
Secondly, nobody is running their vehicle on a hydrogen and oxygen mix produced entirely on the vehicle. Nobody.
Nobody ever will, either.
Just like nobody will ever produce any other variant of a perpetual motion machine.
Many people ARE producing hydrogen and oxygen with their vehicle's electric system, and adding this mixture to their intake. Many claim increased horsepower and fuel economy. I have a friend who says he's getting 3-4 MPG improvement on his gas vehicle that way.
I have no opinion on this. I suppose it's theoretically possible to increase fuel burn efficiency this way. I may fiddle with it some day when I have time to burn.
But anybody who is talking about "hho" or "Brown's Gas" is either ignorant or dishonest.
It's just a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. It's not a new compound or chemical called "HHO". In fact, it's not a compound at all. And Brown didn't discover it, or what it can do, and Stan Meyer is a convicted fraud.
First of all, there's no such thing as "hho".
When you break down water you just get a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. That's not a new chemical called "hho", it's just a mixture.
This bogus term is repeated by the honestly ignorant, but was probably invented by the DIShonestly ignorant in order to fool the honestly ignorant.
Anytime someone starts talking about "HHO" they are either demonstrating their ignorance of junior-high school chemistry or they are dishonest.
Secondly, nobody is running their vehicle on a hydrogen and oxygen mix produced entirely on the vehicle. Nobody.
Nobody ever will, either.
Just like nobody will ever produce any other variant of a perpetual motion machine.
Many people ARE producing hydrogen and oxygen with their vehicle's electric system, and adding this mixture to their intake. Many claim increased horsepower and fuel economy. I have a friend who says he's getting 3-4 MPG improvement on his gas vehicle that way.
I have no opinion on this. I suppose it's theoretically possible to increase fuel burn efficiency this way. I may fiddle with it some day when I have time to burn.
But anybody who is talking about "hho" or "Brown's Gas" is either ignorant or dishonest.
It's just a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. It's not a new compound or chemical called "HHO". In fact, it's not a compound at all. And Brown didn't discover it, or what it can do, and Stan Meyer is a convicted fraud.
- 14,191
- 1,539
- 113
- Location
- Dayton, OH
Thermodynamics - not just a good idea, it's the LAW.
Using an alternator to generate electricity WILL ALWAYS USE MORE THAN WHAT YOU GET OUT OF IT, always. Get over it people.
- Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are both in thermal equilibrium with a third system then they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature.
- First law of thermodynamics: Heat and work are forms of energy transfer. Energy is invariably conserved however the internal energy of a closed system may change as heat is transferred into or out of the system or work is done on or by the system. In real systems work does not always leave the system. For example, changes in molecular energy (potential energy), are generally considered to remain within the system. Similarly, the rotational and vibrational energies of polyatomic molecules remain within the system.
- Second law of thermodynamics: An isolated system, if not already in its state of thermodynamic equilibrium, spontaneously evolves towards it. Thermodynamic equilibrium has the greatest entropy amongst the states accessible to the system.Perpetual motion machines of the second kind are thus impossible.
- Third law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches zero. The entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically zero, and in all cases is determined only by the number of differentground states it has. Specifically, the entropy of a pure crystalline substance at absolute zero temperature is zero.
Using an alternator to generate electricity WILL ALWAYS USE MORE THAN WHAT YOU GET OUT OF IT, always. Get over it people.
- 26,247
- 1,168
- 113
- Location
- NY
- 14,191
- 1,539
- 113
- Location
- Dayton, OH
Love that band. I break a lot of laws EXCEPT for the Laws of Thermodynamics. I just haven't gotten the hang of it yet, well that and the fact that I don't like scamming or lying to people.
NK14 would you be kind enough to qualify that "HP loss" from a alternator that is driven but not under "load" (fully charged bat) to the "loss of HP" via a "charging" under load one? If you've got those handy that would save us some "crunching time" Plus be good to counter our numbers as we're showing a load differential so low its not being entered into the equation on our Turbo-Deuce.
Thats the kind of data we were hoping folks here would share so we can "plug it in" and use outside sources to cross-ref with ours and build a database with some "trend" to it. Any (Deuce size) engine frictional loss/gain numbers (beyond the norm specs) you've worked out, accumulated or have experimented with, would be very helpful. Thanks
Thats the kind of data we were hoping folks here would share so we can "plug it in" and use outside sources to cross-ref with ours and build a database with some "trend" to it. Any (Deuce size) engine frictional loss/gain numbers (beyond the norm specs) you've worked out, accumulated or have experimented with, would be very helpful. Thanks
Marcus, guess the past year our GenSets and other small engines weren't really running on HHO, and All 15 of our club members just imaged it? Hmmmm. Curious how folks that aren't doing any research (other than lip service without sharing any REAL DATA to prove otherwise) are so against some group that is willing to take time to do some REAL research, admitting it may or may not work but at least checking possibilities out. Thought motor-heads and truck buffs would like to see what others are doing, especially if its free data. Oh well.., We'll still post ours on this site for those that are interested in any of the data we learn. Others doing research or having actually run this stuff please feel free to contact and share. "Marauders Out." http://www.facebook.com/pages/Monroe-Marauders-Inc/195578493920611
Stalwart
Well-known member
- 1,739
- 33
- 48
- Location
- Redmond, WA
With NO losses it is 1 hp is the equivalent to 746 watts. It takes 1 hp to drive an alternator making 26.5 A @ 28V NOT accounting for losses. The losses include but not limited to: losses associated with running the belt, the friction of the bearings, the air friction of turning the alternator fan, the electrical losses due to internal resistances in the wires and several more. In the early days of racing, some individuals would run on battery power alone and ditch the alternator altogether, they made them run dummy pulleys to make it more fair. An alternator at high rpm could consume as much as 7 hp at no load with a V-belt. Your "dry" generators consume huge amounts of amperage and this MUST be paid for as additional fuel burned. You'll NEVER get the additional hp back by burning this small amount of gas cracked in your small reaction chamber.
Your quote is appropriate, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein". It shows you to be insane, you are only repeating others failures with the same methods.
Your quote is appropriate, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein". It shows you to be insane, you are only repeating others failures with the same methods.
- 14,191
- 1,539
- 113
- Location
- Dayton, OH
You are kidding, right? Or, if that were true you have just solved the world's energy problems. Yes, the belt is always dragging but you obviously need to listen to an engine (with exhaust) that has an alternator and put a load on said alternator. (I can hear it on almost any gas engine and just because it is a big and a diesel doesn't mean the same thing isn't happening.) If you don't change your mind after that simple experiment then I suggest you read your sig line a few more times.
Heath_h49008
New member
- 1,557
- 101
- 0
- Location
- Kalamazoo/Mich
They are in for a bigger surprise than they think if they try to run ANY vaporized fuel in an LDS/LDT. If they get any real Hydrogen production anyway. (Which is questionable)
The detonation should be quite an eye opener.
I doubt they have noticed what they are doing to the cylinders in the gasoline stuff.
The don't see the energy they are spending, or the damage they are doing, but they can "see" it still runs, so they think they are ahead of the game. Nothing you guys say, or math you show them will persuade them until they "see" the failure by reduced output or burning something up by leaning it out.
The detonation should be quite an eye opener.
I doubt they have noticed what they are doing to the cylinders in the gasoline stuff.
The don't see the energy they are spending, or the damage they are doing, but they can "see" it still runs, so they think they are ahead of the game. Nothing you guys say, or math you show them will persuade them until they "see" the failure by reduced output or burning something up by leaning it out.
- Status